also, with teams putting dominant pass rushers on their left side these days, I dont get the rush to kick ONeil to the O left side. we have had plenty of issues protecting our QBs front sides over the last few years as well. IMO leave him there for at least another year and let him continue to gain experience, then work on kicking him to the left side once the interior is fixed (hopefully this year)
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
His deal was written to be a two year deal and we'll see after that. If a team was willing to stick him at RT I could see the Vikings being able to extract a late round pick or swap of late round picks. But more likely than not he is going to be cut.
The line is going to see some major changes and I don't think anyone has their position set in stone. Reiff could be moved around to either LG or RT, O'Neill could slide over to LT if needed, and Elflein could play any of the three interior spots.
so then they will have the excuse that even though they spent FA and draft picks to fix the OL... once again "it takes time to gel" I dont get the mentality to move pieces all around if they are at least adequate at their current spots when there are weaker spots to address. just seems like a larger chance of failure with the more moves that they make.
With injuries and turnover, "gel time" will always be a factor. But time to gel doesn't mean they have to be crap while they're doing it. As bad as they were last year, I think the Vikings can overhaul the line, be a year or two away from perfect, and still be 100% better than they were last year.
Just having an offensive coaching staff who knows how to play to strengths and mitigate weaknesses will make a big difference.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
His deal was written to be a two year deal and we'll see after that. If a team was willing to stick him at RT I could see the Vikings being able to extract a late round pick or swap of late round picks. But more likely than not he is going to be cut.
The line is going to see some major changes and I don't think anyone has their position set in stone. Reiff could be moved around to either LG or RT, O'Neill could slide over to LT if needed, and Elflein could play any of the three interior spots.
so then they will have the excuse that even though they spent FA and draft picks to fix the OL... once again "it takes time to gel" I dont get the mentality to move pieces all around if they are at least adequate at their current spots when there are weaker spots to address. just seems like a larger chance of failure with the more moves that they make.
There is some truth that an O-line is the sum of its parts vs. individual talent, but you can't sit on your hands and expect something to improve over time if the talent isn't there.
Aside from talent a lot of O-line play is scheme. You can cover a lot up with scheme but also can get exploited easily as well. This should hopefully not be an issue with Kubiak coming in. But I do think the 2018 line would have been much better if they would have been put in a position to succeed.
But back to your point, time and consistency is a moot point when you don't have the right pieces to work with. The goal should bring in a number of players who can play multiple places. Move them around during OTA's with the goal of finalizing your ideal front-5 at the beginning on training camp. Once you start training camp and the preseason you better be ready to stick with those guys. That gives them 2-3 months to gel prior to the season.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
His deal was written to be a two year deal and we'll see after that. If a team was willing to stick him at RT I could see the Vikings being able to extract a late round pick or swap of late round picks. But more likely than not he is going to be cut.
The line is going to see some major changes and I don't think anyone has their position set in stone. Reiff could be moved around to either LG or RT, O'Neill could slide over to LT if needed, and Elflein could play any of the three interior spots.
so then they will have the excuse that even though they spent FA and draft picks to fix the OL... once again "it takes time to gel" I dont get the mentality to move pieces all around if they are at least adequate at their current spots when there are weaker spots to address. just seems like a larger chance of failure with the more moves that they make.
With injuries and turnover, "gel time" will always be a factor. But time to gel doesn't mean they have to be crap while they're doing it. As bad as they were last year, I think the Vikings can overhaul the line, be a year or two away from perfect, and still be 100% better than they were last year.
Just having an offensive coaching staff who knows how to play to strengths and mitigate weaknesses will make a big difference.
Ironic we literally posted similar responses at about the same time B)
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
also, with teams putting dominant pass rushers on their left side these days, I dont get the rush to kick ONeil to the O left side. we have had plenty of issues protecting our QBs front sides over the last few years as well. IMO leave him there for at least another year and let him continue to gain experience, then work on kicking him to the left side once the interior is fixed (hopefully this year)
Like last year with Remmers as an option to move inside, I think the Vikings are setting up contingencies based on whom they're able to get in free agency and the draft. For example, say they're able to land Rodger Saffold. In my opinion that means Reiff stays on the left and O'Neill stays on the right. Say the best player in the draft is Andre Dillard, a left tackle only. That likely means Reiff probably moves to left guard. Jawaan Taylor? He plays on the right, O'Neill moves to the left and Reiff inside.
For the record, I'd prefer O'Neill stay on the right as well. But you never know who's going to accept the money you'e offering in free agency and, in the draft, what position the best player available plays. Vikings have to acquire as many good players as possible, regardless of their position.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
also, with teams putting dominant pass rushers on their left side these days, I dont get the rush to kick ONeil to the O left side. we have had plenty of issues protecting our QBs front sides over the last few years as well. IMO leave him there for at least another year and let him continue to gain experience, then work on kicking him to the left side once the interior is fixed (hopefully this year)
Like last year with Remmers as an option to move inside, I think the Vikings are setting up contingencies based on whom they're able to get in free agency and the draft. For example, say they're able to land Rodger Saffold. In my opinion that means Reiff stays on the left and O'Neill stays on the right. Say the best player in the draft is Andre Dillard, a left tackle only. That likely means Reiff probably moves to left guard. Jawaan Taylor? He plays on the right, O'Neill moves to the left and Reiff inside.
For the record, I'd prefer O'Neill stay on the right as well. But you never know who's going to accept the money you'e offering in free agency and, in the draft, what position the best player available plays. Vikings have to acquire as many good players as possible, regardless of their position.
like I said though... fix the interior this year and then look to move ONeil to the left side in a year if necessary or warranted by Reiffs contract situation. I just think that we need to let players get experience at 1 spot before asking them to move and learn new spots. position flexibility is nice, but when it comes to my starting 5 I am less concerned about how they play other positions and more focused on the 1 that I want them to play all the time. aside from Berger playing RG (average or so) and his ability to jump inside to center and do an OK job, what other position jumps have been made across the front 5 that have worked out for the team?
Remmer from RT to RG... enough said on this one
Hill from LT to RT... didnt pan out
Fusco from RG to LG.... fail
Sirles from OT to OG and back and forth and back and forth... solid prospect that was allowed to walk because he never got comfortable at one spot
I am sure there are more, but our recent track record and associated failures suggest to me that its best to just focus on the OG spots this year and then look to improve the rest. maybe it works out, but I am sure you of all understand my concerns with the Vikings OL.
For now...Elflein at center, O'Neil at RT and Reiff at LT. Concentrate on fixing the guards spots. With limited cap room, address this area. Later on, then make changes to the other positions as needed.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
also, with teams putting dominant pass rushers on their left side these days, I dont get the rush to kick ONeil to the O left side. we have had plenty of issues protecting our QBs front sides over the last few years as well. IMO leave him there for at least another year and let him continue to gain experience, then work on kicking him to the left side once the interior is fixed (hopefully this year)
Like last year with Remmers as an option to move inside, I think the Vikings are setting up contingencies based on whom they're able to get in free agency and the draft. For example, say they're able to land Rodger Saffold. In my opinion that means Reiff stays on the left and O'Neill stays on the right. Say the best player in the draft is Andre Dillard, a left tackle only. That likely means Reiff probably moves to left guard. Jawaan Taylor? He plays on the right, O'Neill moves to the left and Reiff inside.
For the record, I'd prefer O'Neill stay on the right as well. But you never know who's going to accept the money you'e offering in free agency and, in the draft, what position the best player available plays. Vikings have to acquire as many good players as possible, regardless of their position.
like I said though... fix the interior this year and then look to move ONeil to the left side in a year if necessary or warranted by Reiffs contract situation. I just think that we need to let players get experience at 1 spot before asking them to move and learn new spots. position flexibility is nice, but when it comes to my starting 5 I am less concerned about how they play other positions and more focused on the 1 that I want them to play all the time. aside from Berger playing RG (average or so) and his ability to jump inside to center and do an OK job, what other position jumps have been made across the front 5 that have worked out for the team?
Remmer from RT to RG... enough said on this one
Hill from LT to RT... didnt pan out
Fusco from RG to LG.... fail
Sirles from OT to OG and back and forth and back and forth... solid prospect that was allowed to walk because he never got comfortable at one spot
I am sure there are more, but our recent track record and associated failures suggest to me that its best to just focus on the OG spots this year and then look to improve the rest. maybe it works out, but I am sure you of all understand my concerns with the Vikings OL.
So what if the highest rated player on their Board in the 1st was a pure Tackler like Taylor or Dillard?
Since neither one profiles to kick inside, and you constantly state you aren't comfortable counting on a college player switching spots in the Pros, what do you do?
Do you reach for a lower rated pure Guard? Take BPA at DT or LB? Try to trade down?
I've said it before but it bears repeating: you can't box yourself into one approach to fixing a Line with so many holes.
There's a lot of talk about FA but the only name consistently mentioned is Saffold. What if he doesn't want to trade LA weather for Minnesota weather? What if his asking price is too big considering his age?
And who else exactly is out there at Guard in FA?
Meanwhile, there are not one but 2 good to really Centers in FA. Grabbing one and kicking Elf to OG, where by most accounts he was better in college, is an approach that your rigid stance doesn't seem to allow for.
Same for passing on Dillard or Taylor in the 1st if Jonah Williams and Cody Ford are off the Board which is entirely possible as I personally have both rated higher than Ragnow and Price.
Fixing the Line requires the FO to keep all options on the table, not narrowing them down as you would seemingly have them do.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
also, with teams putting dominant pass rushers on their left side these days, I dont get the rush to kick ONeil to the O left side. we have had plenty of issues protecting our QBs front sides over the last few years as well. IMO leave him there for at least another year and let him continue to gain experience, then work on kicking him to the left side once the interior is fixed (hopefully this year)
Like last year with Remmers as an option to move inside, I think the Vikings are setting up contingencies based on whom they're able to get in free agency and the draft. For example, say they're able to land Rodger Saffold. In my opinion that means Reiff stays on the left and O'Neill stays on the right. Say the best player in the draft is Andre Dillard, a left tackle only. That likely means Reiff probably moves to left guard. Jawaan Taylor? He plays on the right, O'Neill moves to the left and Reiff inside.
For the record, I'd prefer O'Neill stay on the right as well. But you never know who's going to accept the money you'e offering in free agency and, in the draft, what position the best player available plays. Vikings have to acquire as many good players as possible, regardless of their position.
like I said though... fix the interior this year and then look to move ONeil to the left side in a year if necessary or warranted by Reiffs contract situation. I just think that we need to let players get experience at 1 spot before asking them to move and learn new spots. position flexibility is nice, but when it comes to my starting 5 I am less concerned about how they play other positions and more focused on the 1 that I want them to play all the time. aside from Berger playing RG (average or so) and his ability to jump inside to center and do an OK job, what other position jumps have been made across the front 5 that have worked out for the team?
Remmer from RT to RG... enough said on this one
Hill from LT to RT... didnt pan out
Fusco from RG to LG.... fail
Sirles from OT to OG and back and forth and back and forth... solid prospect that was allowed to walk because he never got comfortable at one spot
I am sure there are more, but our recent track record and associated failures suggest to me that its best to just focus on the OG spots this year and then look to improve the rest. maybe it works out, but I am sure you of all understand my concerns with the Vikings OL.
So what if the highest rated player on their Board in the 1st was a pure Tackler like Taylor or Dillard?
Since neither one profiles to kick inside, and you constantly state you aren't comfortable counting on a college player switching spots in the Pros, what do you do?
Do you reach for a lower rated pure Guard? Take BPA at DT or LB? Try to trade down?
if no trade down is available, you take the OT or a player at another position thus creating a strength at a position that allows you to move somebody for cap relief or additional draft compensation... or the football equivalent to the unicorn a player for player swap to fill a weakness.
I've said it before but it bears repeating: you can't box yourself into one approach to fixing a Line with so many holes.
There's a lot of talk about FA but the only name consistently mentioned is Saffold. What if he doesn't want to trade LA weather for Minnesota weather? What if his asking price is too big considering his age?
And who else exactly is out there at Guard in FA?
Meanwhile, there are not one but 2 good to really Centers in FA. Grabbing one and kicking Elf to OG, where by most accounts he was better in college, is an approach that your rigid stance doesn't seem to allow for.
my rigid stance...wtf are you talking about? all I have said about college kids is I dont want to rely on the draft and its players to fill critical openings on the starting roster. I want FA to fill the holes and to use the draft to try and find better players over all. college kids can come in and contribute right away, but to often they require some time to get adjusted and OL is one area where there is often a major learning curve. So if we take a center and he allows for Elf to work out at OG then so be it. ( i personally have my doubts that Elf can play OG in the pros, but I have been wrong before so I would rather look for a C in college that is bigger bodied and could kick outside instead of moving a guy I have questions about moving, but think he can play C at a good enough level. The coaching staff has to decide if 2 year old college film is enough to risk kicking Elf to OG, or if they think he is strong enough to play there without getting injured again.
Same for passing on Dillard or Taylor in the 1st if Jonah Williams and Cody Ford are off the Board which is entirely possible as I personally have both rated higher than Ragnow and Price.
Fixing the Line requires the FO to keep all options on the table, not narrowing them down as you would seemingly have them do.
well maybe if they narrow down what they are tying to accomplish they will actually get something done this time. they have been trying to fix the oline for about a decade and are still struggling at it.. which is why I want them to focus on OG and leave C and OT alone until those other spots are addressed. The OG spots have been a mess for a long damn time and it shows far to often.
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