Based on just first impressions, I think one offensive lineman who is going to move up the boards before all is said and done is Connor McGovern (the other one) from Penn State. Long, durable, can play center or guard equally well. Walter Football has him as a 3-5 rounder, which is just silly. I've seen others that don't have him ranked at all, but that may be because he only recently declared.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ StickyBun said:
1st round pick on a center in 2016. 1st and 2nd round guards in 2018. Maybe best O-line in NFL. 4 top 40 picks on the starting unit. It ain't rocket science....OL matters.
Yet we've still got some on the board that can't see it but want us to STILL go 'BPA' in round 1 and 2. 'BPA'....lol....there isn't any best players available for the Vikings that don't involve offensive linemen in the Draft. Period. It won't get fixed otherwise. Ignore it again in this Draft and the Vikings will take a step toward the NFCN bottom.
So reaching for a need (Treadwell) is now fine for you? Cuz TBro would have you believe that there are no 1st Round OL available.
Then again, nearly every single Mock I've seen has at least 4 and as many as 7 O-Linemen going in the 1st.
But lets say he's right. Would you take a player you gave a firm 2nd Round grade to over say Dexter Lawrence, whom you may have a Top 10 grade on?
Years ago I advocated your stance and claimed that no Defensive player Drafted in the 1st would be able to make as much of an improvement to an already stout Defense versus taking a lower ranked player to help a very talent-poor Offense....Rick chose Treadwell.
I've learned my lesson.
But lets talk about that Indy Line. 2nd Round Rookie RT, young Center. And in between them? Mark Glowinski.
Who? Former 4th Round pick of the SeaHags in 2015. Started 16 games at LG in 2016, slated as the starting RG for 2017 but lost his job and was eventually waived. That's not easy to do on a team that had several years of awful Line play.
A lot of you had spat out ultimatums like 'the FO better not sign some no-name bust from another team'. The Colts did just that very thing, and it worked great. Glowinski is getting a ton of praise for brining a veteran presence between the young Center and Rookie RT.
Let's look at last year's Champs. The Eagles signed Brandon Brooks a few years back after the Houston Texans drafted him in the 3rd and he failed to live up to expectations.
These absolutes that get thrown around this time of year like 'HAVE to use a 1st on a Guard' or 'Better not sign anyone I never did my homework on and have never heard of' are how bad teams build shitty rosters.
You can pick Cody Ford in the 2nd and sign Glowinski in FA and you didn't screw this teams chances next year. I'd personally try to draft 2 guys and sign a FA, but I'm not going to declare the offseason a bust if Rick doesn't do that.
FSU Vike, you are oversimplifying my view of this draft. There are definitely some Offensive Tackles who will get drafted in the first round. That is not in dispute. The CBS draft you referenced is a little over the top imo with 7 lineman going in the first when most that I've studied are in the 3 range. My concern has always been on the lack of interior line talent in this draft. Quenton Nelson is a freak, and last year's crop of interior lineman with Ragnow, Price, Wynn, Corbett, Hernandez, Smith, and Daniels in the first 39 picks is far superior to anything in this draft.
If the draft falls the way the CBS writer predicts, Jawaan Taylor dropping to the Vikings at 18 would be a major surprise. How does he help our 3 interior line positions that are arguably the worst in the NFL? He is a natural Right Tackle when we already have one who is coming off a great rookie season and will only get better as he adds more bulk and strength. Reiff didn't have a great year, but he is still one of the better lineman we have when healthy. Replacing 2 or 3 of our interior line will be challenging enough this offseason so drafting a Tackle in the first doesn't make sense. Moving O'Neill to Left Tackle doesn't solve the interior and he can't play guard. Can you move some of the College Tackle prospects to Guard and be successful? Maybe. Cody Ford and Risner are Right Tackles who could potentially make that switch. I'm strongly against that strategy and don't want to take a tackle in the first round hoping that some "draft expert" thinks they "project to guard at the next level".
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ StickyBun said:
1st round pick on a center in 2016. 1st and 2nd round guards in 2018. Maybe best O-line in NFL. 4 top 40 picks on the starting unit. It ain't rocket science....OL matters.
Yet we've still got some on the board that can't see it but want us to STILL go 'BPA' in round 1 and 2. 'BPA'....lol....there isn't any best players available for the Vikings that don't involve offensive linemen in the Draft. Period. It won't get fixed otherwise. Ignore it again in this Draft and the Vikings will take a step toward the NFCN bottom.
So reaching for a need (Treadwell) is now fine for you? Cuz TBro would have you believe that there are no 1st Round OL available.
Then again, nearly every single Mock I've seen has at least 4 and as many as 7 O-Linemen going in the 1st.
But lets say he's right. Would you take a player you gave a firm 2nd Round grade to over say Dexter Lawrence, whom you may have a Top 10 grade on?
Years ago I advocated your stance and claimed that no Defensive player Drafted in the 1st would be able to make as much of an improvement to an already stout Defense versus taking a lower ranked player to help a very talent-poor Offense....Rick chose Treadwell.
I've learned my lesson.
But lets talk about that Indy Line. 2nd Round Rookie RT, young Center. And in between them? Mark Glowinski.
Who? Former 4th Round pick of the SeaHags in 2015. Started 16 games at LG in 2016, slated as the starting RG for 2017 but lost his job and was eventually waived. That's not easy to do on a team that had several years of awful Line play.
A lot of you had spat out ultimatums like 'the FO better not sign some no-name bust from another team'. The Colts did just that very thing, and it worked great. Glowinski is getting a ton of praise for brining a veteran presence between the young Center and Rookie RT.
Let's look at last year's Champs. The Eagles signed Brandon Brooks a few years back after the Houston Texans drafted him in the 3rd and he failed to live up to expectations.
These absolutes that get thrown around this time of year like 'HAVE to use a 1st on a Guard' or 'Better not sign anyone I never did my homework on and have never heard of' are how bad teams build shitty rosters.
You can pick Cody Ford in the 2nd and sign Glowinski in FA and you didn't screw this teams chances next year. I'd personally try to draft 2 guys and sign a FA, but I'm not going to declare the offseason a bust if Rick doesn't do that.
I double down in FA and take 2 there ( 1 being Easton as long as he is healthy and not demanding a premium contract) as well as adding 2 more in the first 4 rounds of the draft. I dont want to be having this conversation again next offseason. Let fix the OL this year.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ StickyBun said:
1st round pick on a center in 2016. 1st and 2nd round guards in 2018. Maybe best O-line in NFL. 4 top 40 picks on the starting unit. It ain't rocket science....OL matters.
Yet we've still got some on the board that can't see it but want us to STILL go 'BPA' in round 1 and 2. 'BPA'....lol....there isn't any best players available for the Vikings that don't involve offensive linemen in the Draft. Period. It won't get fixed otherwise. Ignore it again in this Draft and the Vikings will take a step toward the NFCN bottom.
So reaching for a need (Treadwell) is now fine for you? Cuz TBro would have you believe that there are no 1st Round OL available.
Then again, nearly every single Mock I've seen has at least 4 and as many as 7 O-Linemen going in the 1st.
But lets say he's right. Would you take a player you gave a firm 2nd Round grade to over say Dexter Lawrence, whom you may have a Top 10 grade on?
Years ago I advocated your stance and claimed that no Defensive player Drafted in the 1st would be able to make as much of an improvement to an already stout Defense versus taking a lower ranked player to help a very talent-poor Offense....Rick chose Treadwell.
I've learned my lesson.
But lets talk about that Indy Line. 2nd Round Rookie RT, young Center. And in between them? Mark Glowinski.
Who? Former 4th Round pick of the SeaHags in 2015. Started 16 games at LG in 2016, slated as the starting RG for 2017 but lost his job and was eventually waived. That's not easy to do on a team that had several years of awful Line play.
A lot of you had spat out ultimatums like 'the FO better not sign some no-name bust from another team'. The Colts did just that very thing, and it worked great. Glowinski is getting a ton of praise for brining a veteran presence between the young Center and Rookie RT.
Let's look at last year's Champs. The Eagles signed Brandon Brooks a few years back after the Houston Texans drafted him in the 3rd and he failed to live up to expectations.
These absolutes that get thrown around this time of year like 'HAVE to use a 1st on a Guard' or 'Better not sign anyone I never did my homework on and have never heard of' are how bad teams build shitty rosters.
You can pick Cody Ford in the 2nd and sign Glowinski in FA and you didn't screw this teams chances next year. I'd personally try to draft 2 guys and sign a FA, but I'm not going to declare the offseason a bust if Rick doesn't do that.
Coaching matters?
I really think Sparano made a difference last year. With injuries and awful play across the board in 2016, they gutted the line and started over, getting rid of overpaid loudmouth but soft talent and going with the quiet workman type. They signed Reiff and Remmers (who was pretty solid at RT), started Easton at LG and drafted Elf. They went from awful in 16 to decent unit that worked together and played better than their individual talent.
2018 started with the death of Sparano and went downhill, losing Easton for the year and Elflein missing all the offseason and jumping in after a few games.
Now on Rick's plate of mistakes was not finding a RG. Remmers was much better at RT, Hill was bad and thankfully O'Neill developed quickly. That and depth at LG as Isadora must not be the answer and Collins got hurt as well. Compton and the other guy that they signed in last year sucked.
Rick hasn't been good about drafting depth. He wouldn't draft anyone to challenge Ponder or Teddy. He can't seem to find good depth at offensive line either, although injuries have been a serious factor there.
But I think the loss of Sparano really hurt our line.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
@ Ralphie said:
From a CBS Sportsline article on today's game. Change can be immediate when you get the right personnel....
Be very afraid of this Colts teamUnlike previous versions of this team, which relied mostly on the offense to do the heavy lifting because the defense was rarely good enough to hold onto a lead, this group is completely different. It starts with general manager Chris Ballard, who spent the offseason fixing the offensive line. No. 6 overall pick Quenton Nelson is already the best guard in football. No, really. He's an animal who dominates on a weekly basis.
How good has this offensive line been? A season ago, the unit ranked 32nd in pass blocking, according to Football Outsiders, after giving up 56 sacks. In 2018? They improved to second, allowing just 18(!) sacks.
Colts deserve praise for this season. But all these reviews never mention that they absolutely SUCKED in 2017. This allowed them to have the #3 overall pick and trade down with the Jets and select Nelson.
Kind of nice for a GM to have that kind of draft ammo.
Any of us who post here could have selected Nelson.
The Darius Leonard pick turned out very well. I bet he thinks about Brian O'Neill instead of Braden Smith though.
The other thing a lot of places are giving him credit for is because all the draft picks made the final 53.
It's like the Vikings in 2011 & 2012. The depth was so terrible that the draft picks had a hard time NOT making the team!
They also didn't have Luck last year (the quarterback)
Quote: @TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ StickyBun said:
1st round pick on a center in 2016. 1st and 2nd round guards in 2018. Maybe best O-line in NFL. 4 top 40 picks on the starting unit. It ain't rocket science....OL matters.
Yet we've still got some on the board that can't see it but want us to STILL go 'BPA' in round 1 and 2. 'BPA'....lol....there isn't any best players available for the Vikings that don't involve offensive linemen in the Draft. Period. It won't get fixed otherwise. Ignore it again in this Draft and the Vikings will take a step toward the NFCN bottom.
So reaching for a need (Treadwell) is now fine for you? Cuz TBro would have you believe that there are no 1st Round OL available.
Then again, nearly every single Mock I've seen has at least 4 and as many as 7 O-Linemen going in the 1st.
But lets say he's right. Would you take a player you gave a firm 2nd Round grade to over say Dexter Lawrence, whom you may have a Top 10 grade on?
Years ago I advocated your stance and claimed that no Defensive player Drafted in the 1st would be able to make as much of an improvement to an already stout Defense versus taking a lower ranked player to help a very talent-poor Offense....Rick chose Treadwell.
I've learned my lesson.
But lets talk about that Indy Line. 2nd Round Rookie RT, young Center. And in between them? Mark Glowinski.
Who? Former 4th Round pick of the SeaHags in 2015. Started 16 games at LG in 2016, slated as the starting RG for 2017 but lost his job and was eventually waived. That's not easy to do on a team that had several years of awful Line play.
A lot of you had spat out ultimatums like 'the FO better not sign some no-name bust from another team'. The Colts did just that very thing, and it worked great. Glowinski is getting a ton of praise for brining a veteran presence between the young Center and Rookie RT.
Let's look at last year's Champs. The Eagles signed Brandon Brooks a few years back after the Houston Texans drafted him in the 3rd and he failed to live up to expectations.
These absolutes that get thrown around this time of year like 'HAVE to use a 1st on a Guard' or 'Better not sign anyone I never did my homework on and have never heard of' are how bad teams build shitty rosters.
You can pick Cody Ford in the 2nd and sign Glowinski in FA and you didn't screw this teams chances next year. I'd personally try to draft 2 guys and sign a FA, but I'm not going to declare the offseason a bust if Rick doesn't do that.
FSU Vike, you are oversimplifying my view of this draft. There are definitely some Offensive Tackles who will get drafted in the first round. That is not in dispute. The CBS draft you referenced is a little over the top imo with 7 lineman going in the first when most that I've studied are in the 3 range. My concern has always been on the lack of interior line talent in this draft. Quenton Nelson is a freak, and last year's crop of interior lineman with Ragnow, Price, Wynn, Corbett, Hernandez, Smith, and Daniels in the first 39 picks is far superior to anything in this draft.
If the draft falls the way the CBS writer predicts, Jawaan Taylor dropping to the Vikings at 18 would be a major surprise. How does he help our 3 interior line positions that are arguably the worst in the NFL? He is a natural Right Tackle when we already have one who is coming off a great rookie season and will only get better as he adds more bulk and strength. Reiff didn't have a great year, but he is still one of the better lineman we have when healthy. Replacing 2 or 3 of our interior line will be challenging enough this offseason so drafting a Tackle in the first doesn't make sense. Moving O'Neill to Left Tackle doesn't solve the interior and he can't play guard. Can you move some of the College Tackle prospects to Guard and be successful? Maybe. Cody Ford and Risner are Right Tackles who could potentially make that switch. I'm strongly against that strategy and don't want to take a tackle in the first round hoping that some "draft expert" thinks they "project to guard at the next level".
I think you're the one oversimplifying. Take a tour of the League and I bet you will find more Starters who played Tackle in college that play Guard than you would guys who only played Guard in college.
It's tempting to paint every transition from OT to OG as fraught with risk because Remmers couldn't do it. Fact is he was losing effectiveness at OT long before the position switch.
And he is one lone example. It's far more common for players to kick inside in the NFL than to move from Guard to Tackle. Why? You're not dealing with speedy Edge Rushers. And you get a lot of double team help from your Center.
Now if you're a thinner, very athletic type ala O'Neill kicking inside may not be a good fit. But most of the Tackles with high grades are bigger guys and frankly not all of them have the feet to stay on the outside.
But lets also address this fabled great OG Class from last year. What exactly did Ragnow & Price do? Wynn didn't play due to injury. Hernandez fits better in a straight man scheme than in a ZBS. Smith is playing Tackle. Williams replacement while he was injured played so well that I'm surprised the Boys brought him back to start in the Playoffs. There's upside galore but few breakout stars from that Class at this stage.
It really sounds like your solution is 'shouldn't have picked Hughes last year therefore the team is fucked'. I disagree. The FO can find a Starter or 2 in FA and a Starter or 2 in the Draft. Or pursue a combination of both. Heck, a trade may even be a realistic option.
If you say you don't trust this FO to correctly execute those scenarios that's a different discussion and I'm not sure I'd disagree with you. But there are viable strategies to fix the Line that include drafting a kid who's played Tackle and moving him inside. Which literally happens every single freaking Draft.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ StickyBun said:
1st round pick on a center in 2016. 1st and 2nd round guards in 2018. Maybe best O-line in NFL. 4 top 40 picks on the starting unit. It ain't rocket science....OL matters.
Yet we've still got some on the board that can't see it but want us to STILL go 'BPA' in round 1 and 2. 'BPA'....lol....there isn't any best players available for the Vikings that don't involve offensive linemen in the Draft. Period. It won't get fixed otherwise. Ignore it again in this Draft and the Vikings will take a step toward the NFCN bottom.
So reaching for a need (Treadwell) is now fine for you? Cuz TBro would have you believe that there are no 1st Round OL available.
Then again, nearly every single Mock I've seen has at least 4 and as many as 7 O-Linemen going in the 1st.
But lets say he's right. Would you take a player you gave a firm 2nd Round grade to over say Dexter Lawrence, whom you may have a Top 10 grade on?
Years ago I advocated your stance and claimed that no Defensive player Drafted in the 1st would be able to make as much of an improvement to an already stout Defense versus taking a lower ranked player to help a very talent-poor Offense....Rick chose Treadwell.
I've learned my lesson.
But lets talk about that Indy Line. 2nd Round Rookie RT, young Center. And in between them? Mark Glowinski.
Who? Former 4th Round pick of the SeaHags in 2015. Started 16 games at LG in 2016, slated as the starting RG for 2017 but lost his job and was eventually waived. That's not easy to do on a team that had several years of awful Line play.
A lot of you had spat out ultimatums like 'the FO better not sign some no-name bust from another team'. The Colts did just that very thing, and it worked great. Glowinski is getting a ton of praise for brining a veteran presence between the young Center and Rookie RT.
Let's look at last year's Champs. The Eagles signed Brandon Brooks a few years back after the Houston Texans drafted him in the 3rd and he failed to live up to expectations.
These absolutes that get thrown around this time of year like 'HAVE to use a 1st on a Guard' or 'Better not sign anyone I never did my homework on and have never heard of' are how bad teams build shitty rosters.
You can pick Cody Ford in the 2nd and sign Glowinski in FA and you didn't screw this teams chances next year. I'd personally try to draft 2 guys and sign a FA, but I'm not going to declare the offseason a bust if Rick doesn't do that.
FSU Vike, you are oversimplifying my view of this draft. There are definitely some Offensive Tackles who will get drafted in the first round. That is not in dispute. The CBS draft you referenced is a little over the top imo with 7 lineman going in the first when most that I've studied are in the 3 range. My concern has always been on the lack of interior line talent in this draft. Quenton Nelson is a freak, and last year's crop of interior lineman with Ragnow, Price, Wynn, Corbett, Hernandez, Smith, and Daniels in the first 39 picks is far superior to anything in this draft.
If the draft falls the way the CBS writer predicts, Jawaan Taylor dropping to the Vikings at 18 would be a major surprise. How does he help our 3 interior line positions that are arguably the worst in the NFL? He is a natural Right Tackle when we already have one who is coming off a great rookie season and will only get better as he adds more bulk and strength. Reiff didn't have a great year, but he is still one of the better lineman we have when healthy. Replacing 2 or 3 of our interior line will be challenging enough this offseason so drafting a Tackle in the first doesn't make sense. Moving O'Neill to Left Tackle doesn't solve the interior and he can't play guard. Can you move some of the College Tackle prospects to Guard and be successful? Maybe. Cody Ford and Risner are Right Tackles who could potentially make that switch. I'm strongly against that strategy and don't want to take a tackle in the first round hoping that some "draft expert" thinks they "project to guard at the next level".
I think you're the one oversimplifying. Take a tour of the League and I bet you will find more Starters who played Tackle in college that play Guard than you would guys who only played Guard in college.
It's tempting to paint every transition from OT to OG as fraught with risk because Remmers couldn't do it. Fact is he was losing effectiveness at OT long before the position switch.
And he is one lone example. It's far more common for players to kick inside in the NFL than to move from Guard to Tackle. Why? You're not dealing with speedy Edge Rushers. And you get a lot of double team help from your Center.
Now if you're a thinner, very athletic type ala O'Neill kicking inside may not be a good fit. But most of the Tackles with high grades are bigger guys and frankly not all of them have the feet to stay on the outside.
But lets also address this fabled great OG Class from last year. What exactly did Ragnow & Price do? Wynn didn't play due to injury. Hernandez fits better in a straight man scheme than in a ZBS. Smith is playing Tackle. Williams replacement while he was injured played so well that I'm surprised the Boys brought him back to start in the Playoffs. There's upside galore but few breakout stars from that Class at this stage.
It really sounds like your solution is 'shouldn't have picked Hughes last year therefore the team is fucked'. I disagree. The FO can find a Starter or 2 in FA and a Starter or 2 in the Draft. Or pursue a combination of both. Heck, a trade may even be a realistic option.
If you say you don't trust this FO to correctly execute those scenarios that's a different discussion and I'm not sure I'd disagree with you. But there are viable strategies to fix the Line that include drafting a kid who's played Tackle and moving him inside. Which literally happens every single freaking Draft.
The team isn't "fucked" because of one draft or one player selected. This team finds itself in the situation it's in due to years of neglect, poor drafting, poor coaching, and player development, etc. Unfortunately, I don't trust this front office and coaching staff to reshape this line with the methods you are suggesting. They have proven unable to pull that off so far and I don't see that changing. I know you feel differently about the OLine talent in this draft than I do, but when you combine our track record with a thin talent pool that will require some adept maneuvering in the draft and free agency, and some spot on projecting when you want to move picks to different positions, I have a vote of "No Confidence" for the Front Office and Coaching Leadership making those decisions.
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