Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
If they keep Zimmer then Spielman needs to get involved and tell him to stay out of the offense.
You don't win much in this league where you're throwing it over 70 percent of the time.
DeFelippo dug his own grave with that type of game plan... it's not a sustainable way to generate offense and points.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
If they keep Zimmer then Spielman needs to get involved and tell him to stay out of the offense.
You don't win much in this league where you're throwing it over 70 percent of the time.
DeFelippo dug his own grave with that type of game plan... it's not a sustainable way to generate offense and points.
Maybe not but through the first 8 games he was doing what he thought was best. Cook missed 6 of those first 8 games, Thielen was on a tear of 100 yard games, and the line was not good at run blocking or any kind of blocking.
There was a reason the Vikings were among the league leaders in shortest passes. JDF was using those to supplement the lack of a running game.
JDF had only one year of experience calling plays and was a pass first guy according to most reports I was able to find. Zimmer knew this before hiring him yet did not even give the man one season.
The only game where I thought he may have abandoned the run a little was vs the Patriots. In those first 8 games he was not going to pound Murray or use Boone or Thomas too much. Not when you have Thielen and Diggs at your disposal.
Running is great if you have good run blocking. If you want to say it is for play action then that sounds good but what defense is going to worry about your play action when they know you really cannot run?
When your coach fires the young OC 14 games into the season that your entire offense had been working with all off season then that cant be a good thing. It had to have some affect.
Running the ball is great. If they want to run then they should draft the biggest linemen they can find, don't give Thielen a raise (why pay two WRs a ton of money when you want to run), and let Zimmer call the plays.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
Maybe not but through the first 8 games he was doing what he thought was best. Cook missed 6 of those first 8 games, Thielen was on a tear of 100 yard games, and the line was not good at run blocking or any kind of blocking.
There was a reason the Vikings were among the league leaders in shortest passes. JDF was using those to supplement the lack of a running game.
JDF had only one year of experience calling plays and was a pass first guy according to most reports I was able to find. Zimmer knew this before hiring him yet did not even give the man one season.
The only game where I thought he may have abandoned the run a little was vs the Patriots. In those first 8 games he was not going to pound Murray or use Boone or Thomas too much. Not when you have Thielen and Diggs at your disposal.
Running is great if you have good run blocking. If you want to say it is for play action then that sounds good but what defense is going to worry about your play action when they know you really cannot run?
When your coach fires the young OC 14 games into the season that your entire offense had been working with all off season then that cant be a good thing. It had to have some affect.
Running the ball is great. If they want to run then they should draft the biggest linemen they can find, don't give Thielen a raise (why pay two WRs a ton of money when you want to run), and let Zimmer call the plays.
Is that you, DeFelippo? :-D
It sure seems like you want to blame all our offensive troubles on Zimmer instead of the guy who ran the offense for 13 games before he got fired. When Adam Thielen is visibly frustrated and gets caught on the mic saying "It's been there all f*cking day" in the Patriots game and you have veteran leaders like Rudolph saying "our offense doesn't have an identity", that tells me the players weren't on board with what DeFelippo was doing with the game plan. When stuff like that starts to trickle out to the media, it tells me that there were bigger issues going on in the locker room than fans know...
As far as DeFelippo, he did a good job of getting Theilen his yards and catches early in the year, but guess what... teams that aren't winning or holding leads need to throw a lot. Calvin Johnson set an NFL record for yards in 2012. The Lions went 4-12 that season... using your logic that OC sure did a great job with the Lions offense. Throwing it 700 times sure won them a lot of games!!!
Somebody needs to address Minny65's observation that the team lacked intensity the whole season. I agree.
How many years have we seen Zimmer-led teams hump the bunk on nationally televised games under the lights?
How many seasons do we need to see Mike's teams come off a bye looking uninspired or worse, ill-prepared.
How many times have we seen him throw the Challenge Flag when it had zero chance of overturning a call? How many baffling clock-management scenarios? How many OCs in 5 years, 4? How many Kickers and other Players called out in the media instead of behind closed doors?
Just because the franchise had god awful Head Coaches before Mike Zimmer does not mean he's a great or even good one. It just means he's better than Childress or Frazier.
I've never seen a team with so many Pro Bowl Level Players look so pedestrian unless it was constructed via a ton of Free Agents that just didn't mesh.
Something was off with this squad the entire year. I personally think his style has worn thin with the players. Hope I'm wrong or we'll probably see a repeat of this lost season real soon,
Is it complex or not?
Zimmer's teams have won the division 3 of his 5 years?
I love the grit and personality of this team the first year they won it in Lamblow, like I did the 2017 squad - till the CG.
There is something not right though as FSU points out...Chemistry wise and I don't (shurmur play calling aside) feel like we are advantaged game plan wise anymore.
Zimmer should be feeling the heat and I think the Big Knockers on this team underperform. IS that on them the coaches or both?
Very tricky to figure this mess out...It's not one thing gone wrong.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
Maybe not but through the first 8 games he was doing what he thought was best. Cook missed 6 of those first 8 games, Thielen was on a tear of 100 yard games, and the line was not good at run blocking or any kind of blocking.
There was a reason the Vikings were among the league leaders in shortest passes. JDF was using those to supplement the lack of a running game.
JDF had only one year of experience calling plays and was a pass first guy according to most reports I was able to find. Zimmer knew this before hiring him yet did not even give the man one season.
The only game where I thought he may have abandoned the run a little was vs the Patriots. In those first 8 games he was not going to pound Murray or use Boone or Thomas too much. Not when you have Thielen and Diggs at your disposal.
Running is great if you have good run blocking. If you want to say it is for play action then that sounds good but what defense is going to worry about your play action when they know you really cannot run?
When your coach fires the young OC 14 games into the season that your entire offense had been working with all off season then that cant be a good thing. It had to have some affect.
Running the ball is great. If they want to run then they should draft the biggest linemen they can find, don't give Thielen a raise (why pay two WRs a ton of money when you want to run), and let Zimmer call the plays.
Is that you, DeFelippo? :-D
It sure seems like you want to blame all our offensive troubles on Zimmer instead of the guy who ran the offense for 13 games before he got fired. When Adam Thielen is visibly frustrated and gets caught on the mic saying "It's been there all f*cking day" in the Patriots game and you have veteran leaders like Rudolph saying "our offense doesn't have an identity", that tells me the players weren't on board with what DeFelippo was doing with the game plan. When stuff like that starts to trickle out to the media, it tells me that there were bigger issues going on in the locker room than fans know...
As far as DeFelippo, he did a good job of getting Theilen his yards and catches early in the year, but guess what... teams that aren't winning or holding leads need to throw a lot. Calvin Johnson set an NFL record for yards in 2012. The Lions went 4-12 that season... using your logic that OC sure did a great job with the Lions offense. Throwing it 700 times sure won them a lot of games!!!
I really cannot and wont discuss what the Lions did because two different teams in two different seasons with different personnel is just not worth a discussion.
Thielen seems to like to run off at the mouth. Nothing wrong with that as many WRs over the years have done the same. It is now just getting caught on camera more.
I cant say what Thielen was referring to either. Was it the play call or the fact that he was open and Cousins did not see him? In this argument it appears to be the play call.
Rudolph's full comments are here ...
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...on-offense
... you chose one snippet to use an evidence that JDF did not know what he was doing.
The reality is that Rudolph talks about the Packers win and laments the losses to the Bears, Patriots, and Seahawks. He even mentions the 3rd and short plays where the players just could not get it done against the better teams.
I am saying the buck stops with Zimmer. He hired a guy knowing his experience and preferences. He allowed the draft and free agency to unfold as it did because he was comfortable with the offensive line (and presumably the new OC) being able to execute his vision of what an offense should be. He was not loyal to the person he hired and then the same problem came back vs a good team in the Bears.
He could have kept JDF and they likely have the same success vs the Dolphins and Lions and probably still do not get it done vs the Bears.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
Is it complex or not?
No doubt complex but who does the field results fall on?
Zimmer's teams have won the division 3 of his 5 years?
I love the grit and personality of this team the first year they won it in Lamblow, like I did the 2017 squad - till the CG.
Absolutely, loved the attitude/personality of the team Zimmer's first few years. Defense had a swagger like the Bears have now. But that has disappeared since the Philly beat-down and it did not reappear at all this whole year.
There is something not right though as FSU points out...Chemistry wise and I don't (shurmur play calling aside) feel like we are advantaged game plan wise anymore.
Yea, turns out that the Shurmur loss was even more impactful than most of us/I thought. We seemed to respond to the Philly beating by pursuing DeFlip as our OC even though he was thought of as a HC candidate and he seemed like a one-year rental at best with Stefansky waiting in the wings to take the job when DeFlip moved on. The thing about DeFlip was that he didn't call the plays in Philly. I think we also let DeFlip have a lot of input on going after Cousins with all his experience within the NFC East. Now hindsight is 20/20 and at the time of both decisions I agreed with them and I still like the Cousins decision and not hanging on to the other 3 QB's.
Zimmer should be feeling the heat and I think the Big Knockers on this team underperform. IS that on them the coaches or both?
It is on both but the Buck does stop with Zimmer he is the HC. Just like player acquisition stops with Spelly as GM. Zimmer's job is to coach up and develop the players acquired which he has input on. The drop-off of the passion of this team from last year was very evident the whole season. Again that is on the HC. The lack of preparation and very slow starts in almost every game is on the HC. Most of us say we have a talented roster that has underperformed and that is also on the HC.
Zimmer's job is also to surround himself with good assistant coaches. He has a history of hiring former HC like Turner, Shurmur and Sparano. Turner needed, and still needs, to retire the game has passed him bye. Sparano's few years here were nothing to brag about our OL did not improve with his input. Shurmur was a very good hire. Obviously DeFlip was not a good hire and I think a knee-jerk reaction for the Eagle game. Again the buck stops with Zimmer.
Very tricky to figure this mess out...It's not one thing gone wrong.
Yes, but when so many things go wrong that is usually a management/leadership problem. Zimmer is the manager/leader of the team and the buck stops with him on the field. I know I am beating up Zimmer after supporting him up until the mess this year. I just came to the conclusion that the Peter Principle applies here. He is an excellent DC but not HC material as much as that pains me to admit. I don't think he is a very good game manager either and has not shown much growth in that aspect as well.
So, in conclusion, who is responsible for:
1 - complete lack of passion the whole season
2 - player development and motivation
3- assistant coaches
4 - Coaching all 3 units - Def/Off/ST and game management
This will come off as a negative post/thought but I am so tired of mediocracy and next year. This team has more issues then needing two new Guards.
I think given our situation we almost have to reload and give them one more year. I have not had total faith in Mike since the 2016 collapse. I didn't like his finger pointing or his attitude. Then came last years magic carpet ride. I disagreed with his handling of the Case and the magic horse shoe.
You want to know where Mike fits in on my historical list. Tied with Burns for 3rd. Hear me out. I met Jerry a few times. Him and Mike might be alot alike. Both long time coordinators who got their shots late. The difference I see is while Rick has worked hard to give Mike what he wanted. Mike Lynn forced the worse trade on Jerry in the history of the NFL. Then told Jerry change the offense you've spend a lifetime tweeking and you run a damn. I back formation.
If Mike ever has a playoff run like Jerry did in 1987 then he could break the tie. They both under achieved though.
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