Quote: @Wetlander said:
Now with Keenum, I think he's shown some good things and not so good things. His positives... fiery leader, great mobility in the pocket, can extend plays with his legs, good accuracy, has some play-making ability. His negatives... inconsistent ball placement, average at best arm, a bit too much of a gunslinger without the arm to get away with it.
That's about where I'm at. I'm bullish on Case for the playoffs. As a long-term, franchise QB, not so much. And my gut tells me that the Vikings are just as...well, cautious might be a better word than skeptical. And I think a little bit of caution is a good thing when it comes to million-dollar decision making.
I just think the negatives (and you can add a failure to see open receivers) are the sort that will eventually come home to roost.
Quote: @HappyViking said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
If Case wins at least one playoff game, then he's as good as any QB we've had not named, Fran or Joe. If he gets the team to the SB, then he's as good as any in Viking history.
I think he'd have to absolutely play his worst game of his career in the playoffs not to get a contract from the Vikings. I would have no problem wth the Vikes signing Case and cutting ties with Teddy and Sam.
The QBs going into next season would be Case, Slotter, and a newly drafted rookie. Not having Sam and Teddy around would rid the team of distractions of the ongoing QB controversy too.
And what if Case turns back into a pumpkin? C'mon, Happy, you have to admit this is a distinct possibility. Then the Vikings take what is maybe the most talented roster in the NFL and hand it over to a rookie? Or a kid who was a wide receiver two years ago? I'm not saying there isn't risk in Teddy and Sam, too. There is. That's why the decision will be a hard one. But I don't understand why everyone seems to acknowledge the great line play, the great receiver play, the great play calling...and then give all the credit to a guy who, up until this season, was a career backup. I wouldn't be so skeptical if I hadn't seen it a dozen times. This Case turning into a pumpkin bit can be thrown out the window, as far as I'm concerned. He's proven that he can make the plays needed, if he's given the time and there are open receivers. There isn't a QB in the league that can win without a very good/great OLine and some decent playmakers at RB and WR. But, there are several QBs that still can't win even if they have those things.
If Case is good enough to win in the playoffs, and then a SB, why do you need to QB shop any longer? The Vikings have never had a SB winning QB, and if Case does that, why would there be any concerns of him not being good enough?
Teddy and Sam in their current conditions are now unproven and very risky to count on. With Case, the team knows exactly what they have, and he's winning. What more could we want?
Deja Vu, man. I had the same argument with people about Randall Cunningham almost 20 years ago. Look, what you're essentially saying is that if Case wins a Super Bowl, then he's a better QB than Fran Tarkenton, Daunte Culpepper, Brett Favre and all the other QBs who didn't get us there, which is ridiculous.
There are many deeply flawed QBs who've won Super Bowls because of exceptional supporting casts, and I obviously hope Case is the next one. I just have serious doubts that he's the kind of QB who can sustain a long term career as a starter. Maybe I'm wrong.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
If Case wins at least one playoff game, then he's as good as any QB we've had not named, Fran or Joe. If he gets the team to the SB, then he's as good as any in Viking history.
I think he'd have to absolutely play his worst game of his career in the playoffs not to get a contract from the Vikings. I would have no problem wth the Vikes signing Case and cutting ties with Teddy and Sam.
The QBs going into next season would be Case, Slotter, and a newly drafted rookie. Not having Sam and Teddy around would rid the team of distractions of the ongoing QB controversy too.
And what if Case turns back into a pumpkin? C'mon, Happy, you have to admit this is a distinct possibility. Then the Vikings take what is maybe the most talented roster in the NFL and hand it over to a rookie? Or a kid who was a wide receiver two years ago? I'm not saying there isn't risk in Teddy and Sam, too. There is. That's why the decision will be a hard one. But I don't understand why everyone seems to acknowledge the great line play, the great receiver play, the great play calling...and then give all the credit to a guy who, up until this season, was a career backup. I wouldn't be so skeptical if I hadn't seen it a dozen times. This Case turning into a pumpkin bit can be thrown out the window, as far as I'm concerned. He's proven that he can make the plays needed, if he's given the time and there are open receivers. There isn't a QB in the league that can win without a very good/great OLine and some decent playmakers at RB and WR. But, there are several QBs that still can't win even if they have those things.
If Case is good enough to win in the playoffs, and then a SB, why do you need to QB shop any longer? The Vikings have never had a SB winning QB, and if Case does that, why would there be any concerns of him not being good enough?
Teddy and Sam in their current conditions are now unproven and very risky to count on. With Case, the team knows exactly what they have, and he's winning. What more could we want?
Deja Vu, man. I had the same argument with people about Randall Cunningham almost 20 years ago. Look, what you're essentially saying is that if Case wins a Super Bowl, then he's a better QB than Fran Tarkenton, Daunte Culpepper, Brett Favre and all the other QBs who didn't get us there, which is ridiculous.
There are many deeply flawed QBs who've won Super Bowls because of exceptional supporting casts, and I obviously hope Case is the next one. I just have serious doubts that he's the kind of QB who can sustain a long term career as a starter. Maybe I'm wrong.
Randal Cunningham was 35-36 years old in 1998-99. Committing to him wasn't really going to happen. Keenum is still 29 years old.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
If Case wins at least one playoff game, then he's as good as any QB we've had not named, Fran or Joe. If he gets the team to the SB, then he's as good as any in Viking history.
I think he'd have to absolutely play his worst game of his career in the playoffs not to get a contract from the Vikings. I would have no problem wth the Vikes signing Case and cutting ties with Teddy and Sam.
The QBs going into next season would be Case, Slotter, and a newly drafted rookie. Not having Sam and Teddy around would rid the team of distractions of the ongoing QB controversy too.
And what if Case turns back into a pumpkin? C'mon, Happy, you have to admit this is a distinct possibility. Then the Vikings take what is maybe the most talented roster in the NFL and hand it over to a rookie? Or a kid who was a wide receiver two years ago? I'm not saying there isn't risk in Teddy and Sam, too. There is. That's why the decision will be a hard one. But I don't understand why everyone seems to acknowledge the great line play, the great receiver play, the great play calling...and then give all the credit to a guy who, up until this season, was a career backup. I wouldn't be so skeptical if I hadn't seen it a dozen times. This Case turning into a pumpkin bit can be thrown out the window, as far as I'm concerned. He's proven that he can make the plays needed, if he's given the time and there are open receivers. There isn't a QB in the league that can win without a very good/great OLine and some decent playmakers at RB and WR. But, there are several QBs that still can't win even if they have those things.
If Case is good enough to win in the playoffs, and then a SB, why do you need to QB shop any longer? The Vikings have never had a SB winning QB, and if Case does that, why would there be any concerns of him not being good enough?
Teddy and Sam in their current conditions are now unproven and very risky to count on. With Case, the team knows exactly what they have, and he's winning. What more could we want?
Deja Vu, man. I had the same argument with people about Randall Cunningham almost 20 years ago. Look, what you're essentially saying is that if Case wins a Super Bowl, then he's a better QB than Fran Tarkenton, Daunte Culpepper, Brett Favre and all the other QBs who didn't get us there, which is ridiculous.
There are many deeply flawed QBs who've won Super Bowls because of exceptional supporting casts, and I obviously hope Case is the next one. I just have serious doubts that he's the kind of QB who can sustain a long term career as a starter. Maybe I'm wrong.
Why is it ridicoulus to think Case is playing as well this year as Fran, Randal, and Brett during the Viking SB run seasons? Personally, I think Case is playing better than Fran. Fran could scrample, and was accurrate, but he didn't exactly have that conveted "rocket" arm, and often had some wobblers completed down field. Fran got the job done, but he wasn't the "perfect" QB.
Case is way younger than Cunningham and Brett when they had their stints as Vikings (both came out of retirement). Case is still young and hasn't reached his ceiling yet. The guy has never even been a starter for a full season, so he's still learning the game.
Case is one of the best QBs in the league this year, and since he'd become a starter, his completion % and QBR are as good as anyone in Viking history.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
Randal Cunningham was 35-36 years old in 1998-99. Committing to him wasn't really going to happen.
..and yet we did.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
Randal Cunningham was 35-36 years old in 1998-99. Committing to him wasn't really going to happen.
..and yet we did.
Because they thought the next year would be as good as their NFCC game run the year prior. It was a window. Keenum is much younger, so it makes more sense than a small window if they go that way.
Do you know how almost impossible it is to not have the QB that took you to 15-1 and the doorstep of the Superbowl as the guy the following year? Won't happen. And it won't happen with Keenum if he does the same. Cunningham was dynamic, athletic and had the big arm. Johnson was not any of those things. Its not apples for apples by any stretch.
Quote: @HappyViking said:
Why is it ridicoulus to think Case is playing as well this year as Fran, Randal, and Brett during the Viking SB run seasons? Personally, I think Case is playing better than Fran. Fran could scrample, and was accurrate, but he didn't exactly have that conveted "rocket" arm, and often had some wobblers completed down field. Fran got the job done, but he wasn't the "perfect" QB.
Case is way younger than Cunningham and Brett when they had their stints as Vikings (both came out of retirement). Case is still young and hasn't reached is ceiling yet. The guy has never even been a starter for a full season, so he's still learning the game.
Case is one of the best QBs in the league this year, and since he'd become a starter, his completion % and QBR are as good as anyone in Viking history.
And I think Case is a flawed QB whose deficiencies are being masked by an exceptional supporting cast. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because we likely won't have the true answer to that question for several months. In the meantime, let's hope he keeps that horseshoe for at least another 3 games.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
Why is it ridicoulus to think Case is playing as well this year as Fran, Randal, and Brett during the Viking SB run seasons? Personally, I think Case is playing better than Fran. Fran could scrample, and was accurrate, but he didn't exactly have that conveted "rocket" arm, and often had some wobblers completed down field. Fran got the job done, but he wasn't the "perfect" QB.
Case is way younger than Cunningham and Brett when they had their stints as Vikings (both came out of retirement). Case is still young and hasn't reached is ceiling yet. The guy has never even been a starter for a full season, so he's still learning the game.
Case is one of the best QBs in the league this year, and since he'd become a starter, his completion % and QBR are as good as anyone in Viking history.
And I think Case is a flawed QB whose deficiencies are being masked by an exceptional supporting cast. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because we likely won't have the true answer to that question for several months. In the meantime, let's hope he keeps that horseshoe for at least another 3 games.
I see where you're coming from, MB. I was a doubter of Case too, but I'm over it now since the Bye Week. He's playing very well, and is making sound decisions. While many would think comparing Case to Fran, Brett, Kramer, and Pep would be laughable, what about comparing him to Brad Johnson? Brad was never considered one of the Viking "greats", but he ended up having a nice NFL career and a SB winning QB.
I think it would be a big mistake to throw away Case because he isn't that "perfect" QB. If Teddy and/or Sam could be signed "prove it" cheap contracts, then fine sign one or both of them too. Case will get paid next season, and I can't imagine the Vikes letting him go.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
Randal Cunningham was 35-36 years old in 1998-99. Committing to him wasn't really going to happen.
..and yet we did.
Because they thought the next year would be as good as their NFCC game run the year prior. It was a window. Keenum is much younger, so it makes more sense than a small window if they go that way.
Do you know how almost impossible it is to not have the QB that took you to 15-1 and the doorstep of the Superbowl as the guy the following year? Won't happen. And it won't happen with Keenum if he does the same. Cunningham was dynamic, athletic and had the big arm. Johnson was not any of those things. Its not apples for apples by any stretch.
Even I said at the time that it was "understandable" given his performance in '98. Sure, give him the starting job, but don't give him a 5 year, 28 million dollar contract and then trade away the other guy. OC leaves for a HC gig and Cunningham is benched 5 games into his shiny new contract. It may not be apples to apples, but it has some distressing similarities.
I like what Case is doing, I just dont see it being a long term fix to the QB problem. I dont think what he is doing is sustainable for long periods of time. he is relying heavily on his scrambling ability because he doesnt have the arm strength to fire the ball into tight places so he has to wait for players to get more open as the defense opens up reacting to the developing play. Maybe I am wrong, but his back foot floaters are as lucky as I have ever seen and I cant explain why so many more arent getting picked off except bad defensive backs. He rarely ever throws any pass that requires zip on the ball. short outs and quick slants against tight coverage, these are typically staples of a pro passing game and he doesnt appear to be able to make the throw.
I think he has earned another contract, but it should be incentive laden with team protections as well as player outs. I wouldnt guarantee him starter money ( 20+ million) and I wouldnt want even middle range money guranteed for more than next year. yes we have a window open with a dominating defense and a good supporting cast on offense, but that doesnt mean that we arent always looking to improve and IMO QB is a position that right now could still use some improvements from a physical standpoint.
as far as his ceiling... i am pretty sure we have seen it, its only debatable how long he can maintain this level of play. how much of his good play is system, but also in fairness how much of his unimpressive play is system. he only broke 300 yards twice this year, and broke 250 6 times, and failed to get 225 6 times, I have a lot of questions yet about the guy and his impressive w/l record.
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