Quote: @pattersaur said:
@ comet52 said:
I don't know what a trade up scenario that works would be. Chicago, Washington and New England could easily all take QBs, which means you are probably moving up and overpaying for a guy such as Penix who would probably be an overpay even in the #11 slot where we are.
Teams have been overdrafting QBs for years now due to the way the game and contracts have evolved and when that happens your franchise just gets set back even more.
Alternatively, running it back with Kirk and needing to pay him, Jefferson, Darrisaw, Hunter, and somehow upgrade a defense that is weak at every position seems unlikely to work imo. I don't even know if Kirk will come back as there might be a situation out there where the money and the chance at a ring looks better.
To me all of that plus the other teams in the North trending up means this franchise is between a rock and a hard place. The g.m.'s talent acquisition record is middling at best, the coach motivates well but thinks he can call an offense when he clearly cannot, and his ability to develop a QB is a total question mark to me at this point.
So maybe it will all just work out somehow, or maybe it's a disaster in the making.
I agree with most of what's in this thread but I'll push back on the bold. Whiffing on a QB is about the same as whiffing on any other first round pick. It happens every year to about half the teams drafting in round 1. It only sets you back if you marry yourself to said QB longer than necessary when all evidence is telling you he's probably not the guy. Think Trubisky in Chicago or Daniel Jones in NYG.
Other teams have realized their mistake early and moved on (ARI with Rosen, SF with Lance, WAS with Haskins). Sure the franchise was set back by a season or two but whiffing on QB doesn't automatically mean 5 years of futility.
I do agree that the Vikings have two options- re-sign Kirk or rebuild. The same two options we've had the past two seasons. Trying to sign Kirk while also drafting a QB in the first does not make sense to me as I've said many times, unless the plan is for Kirk to only be here one more year. Frankly, I doubt he'll go for that and I don't blame him. So therefore we need to commit to 2-3 more years of Kirk and draft defense/OL, or roll with a kid. I lean to the latter.
JJ is still so young that I think you lock him up regardless of the plan. I understand the temptation to trade him for a ransom but I just love watching him play so much that for me he's pretty much untouchable. If he tells the team, "Kirk for 3 years or I want out" well then that's another story. But we have no reason to think that's the case.
Vikings absolutely put themselves into a bad spot by neglecting the QB position behind Kirk for a long time. It might not have been an either/or scenario when Kirk was younger but now with his age and injury I think it's gotta either be all in for one last voyage, or all in with a new Captain.
I saw a tweet yesterday where JJ put that notion to bed. He said he is going to ball out for who ever is throwing the ball, so the scare tactic of keep kirk or lose JJ seems to be put to rest by the man himself.
I don’t really understand the mindset of someone who thinks
we need to burn it down even further. We
are already as uncommitted as possible. At some point you’re just saying, hey I don’t
ever want to keep my good players and I want to ensure that whatever QB I bring
in is going to have to struggle as much as possible since they have no
supporting cast with any experience. I
do agree that bringing Cousins back tends to amplify the desire to go “all-in”,
but I can’t imagine a scenario where we’re auctioning off all our good pieces
to get more draft picks. The only way we
trade guys like Jefferson is if his contract demands make it a bad choice to
keep him because too much is tied up with one guy, in which case he will get franchise
tagged.
The Vikings problem is just that we need to be better at
drafting and coaching guys up. This is a
league where you succeed based on how much production you get out of your low
cost guys. Everyone has their super
stars, it’s the other guys that determine whether you are competitive or not. The Lions and Packers are both showing success
based off having quality drafts.
It seems to me that every scenario and commentor thinks Cousins comes back 100% and lasts a full season after an Achilles tear. I highly doubt that, and it is time to rip the band aide off and go full throttle for a rookie QB - IMO. I look in the Cards (committed to Murray) overall pick 4 for the target. Ideally, Jayden Daniels is still there.
Kwesi and the draft team has to work overtime to find the guy and then a cheap veteran to bridge the gap for the rookie. It is time to move forward not status quo.
Quote: @medaille said:
I don’t really understand the mindset of someone who thinks
we need to burn it down even further. We
are already as uncommitted as possible. At some point you’re just saying, hey I don’t
ever want to keep my good players and I want to ensure that whatever QB I bring
in is going to have to struggle as much as possible since they have no
supporting cast with any experience. I
do agree that bringing Cousins back tends to amplify the desire to go “all-in”,
but I can’t imagine a scenario where we’re auctioning off all our good pieces
to get more draft picks. The only way we
trade guys like Jefferson is if his contract demands make it a bad choice to
keep him because too much is tied up with one guy, in which case he will get franchise
tagged.
The Vikings problem is just that we need to be better at
drafting and coaching guys up. This is a
league where you succeed based on how much production you get out of your low
cost guys. Everyone has their super
stars, it’s the other guys that determine whether you are competitive or not. The Lions and Packers are both showing success
based off having quality drafts.
^^^
Well said and nothing is guaranteed that taking 2 steps back (or 3 or 4) is a recipe for any future success...
To your last point, the last couple of drafts have been mediocre and thats on Kwesi. If these playoffs have highlighted anything, its that this is a game of attrition, especially by playoff time.
Teams with a few superstars left standing (and quality depth) have the best chance to win.
Bills are a case in point; they were a pretty banged-up team last night. It showed in the final score too.
Right now, we look to be the 4th best team in the NFC North heading into an offseason where all of our rivals are in better shape against the gap and in terms of draft picks. Not hard to say the "competitive rebuild" is not playing out too well. Need to grab a qb if we can and move forward with rebuilding. We have no clear path other than to mortgage some picks on QB of the future. While Kirk is fine, signing another prohibitive contract is the last thing this franchise can afford.
Quote: @medaille said:
I don’t really understand the mindset of someone who thinks
we need to burn it down even further. We
are already as uncommitted as possible. At some point you’re just saying, hey I don’t
ever want to keep my good players and I want to ensure that whatever QB I bring
in is going to have to struggle as much as possible since they have no
supporting cast with any experience. I
do agree that bringing Cousins back tends to amplify the desire to go “all-in”,
but I can’t imagine a scenario where we’re auctioning off all our good pieces
to get more draft picks. The only way we
trade guys like Jefferson is if his contract demands make it a bad choice to
keep him because too much is tied up with one guy, in which case he will get franchise
tagged.
The Vikings problem is just that we need to be better at
drafting and coaching guys up. This is a
league where you succeed based on how much production you get out of your low
cost guys. Everyone has their super
stars, it’s the other guys that determine whether you are competitive or not. The Lions and Packers are both showing success
based off having quality drafts.
agreed. Look a the 22 draft for the Lions and Pack, they both killed it, especially the pack. We had alot of whiffs with our early picksat this point, as Cine, Booth and Asamoah have not done much.
On detroit, it helps when you have the 2 overall, but Pack especially killed it.
It seems like to win a Superbowl you need a QB somewhere in the vicinity of Mahomes and you need a management capable of getting or picking him. And then assembling a team around him and good coaching. Which we don't have.
Kind of reminds me of Mission Impossible;
It's
much worse than you think.
The terminal is in a black vault lockdown.
The only person allowed in the room... has to pass through a series of security
checks.
The first is a voiceprint identification and a six-digit access code.
This only gets him into the outer room.
Next, he has to pass a retinal scan.
And finally, the intrusion countermeasures... are only deactivated by a
double-electronic keycard... which we won't have.
Now, inside the black vault... there are three systems operating... whenever
the technician is out of the room.
The first is sound-sensitive. Anything above a whisper sets it off.
The second system detects any increase in temperature.
Even the body heat of an unauthorized person in the room... will trigger it if
the temperature rises just a single degree.
Now, that temperature is controlled by the air conditioning... coming in
through an overhead duct, 30 feet above the floor.
That vent is guarded by a laser net.
The third system is on the floor, and is pressure-sensitive.
The slightest increase in weight will trigger the alarm.
And any one of these systems, if set off... will activate an a*t*matic
lockdown.
Now, believe me when I tell you, gentlemen... all three systems are
state-of-the-art.
And you really think we can do this?
We're going to do it.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I don’t really understand the mindset of someone who thinks
we need to burn it down even further. We
are already as uncommitted as possible. At some point you’re just saying, hey I don’t
ever want to keep my good players and I want to ensure that whatever QB I bring
in is going to have to struggle as much as possible since they have no
supporting cast with any experience. I
do agree that bringing Cousins back tends to amplify the desire to go “all-in”,
but I can’t imagine a scenario where we’re auctioning off all our good pieces
to get more draft picks. The only way we
trade guys like Jefferson is if his contract demands make it a bad choice to
keep him because too much is tied up with one guy, in which case he will get franchise
tagged.
The Vikings problem is just that we need to be better at
drafting and coaching guys up. This is a
league where you succeed based on how much production you get out of your low
cost guys. Everyone has their super
stars, it’s the other guys that determine whether you are competitive or not. The Lions and Packers are both showing success
based off having quality drafts.
^^^
Well said and nothing is guaranteed that taking 2 steps back (or 3 or 4) is a recipe for any future success...
To your last point, the last couple of drafts have been mediocre and thats on Kwesi. If these playoffs have highlighted anything, its that this is a game of attrition, especially by playoff time.
Teams with a few superstars left standing (and quality depth) have the best chance to win.
Bills are a case in point; they were a pretty banged-up team last night. It showed in the final score too.
KC had Alex Smith coming off a pro bowl year when they identified Mahomes and made the move to get him. I dont understand the "given" premise that we are going to be taking a step back if we make the move away from Kirk, yes its likely we see a dip in production from the position, but its also likely we are going to see a dip in production from the position as Kirk ages and is coming back from what is likely to be more injuries.
Quote: @medaille said:
I don’t really understand the mindset of someone who thinks
we need to burn it down even further. We
are already as uncommitted as possible. At some point you’re just saying, hey I don’t
ever want to keep my good players and I want to ensure that whatever QB I bring
in is going to have to struggle as much as possible since they have no
supporting cast with any experience. I
do agree that bringing Cousins back tends to amplify the desire to go “all-in”,
but I can’t imagine a scenario where we’re auctioning off all our good pieces
to get more draft picks. The only way we
trade guys like Jefferson is if his contract demands make it a bad choice to
keep him because too much is tied up with one guy, in which case he will get franchise
tagged.
The Vikings problem is just that we need to be better at
drafting and coaching guys up. This is a
league where you succeed based on how much production you get out of your low
cost guys. Everyone has their super
stars, it’s the other guys that determine whether you are competitive or not. The Lions and Packers are both showing success
based off having quality drafts.
Let me first say, I absolutely would love to see Justin Jefferson spend his entire career in purple. However, his value to a team with terrible QB play is nil. WR production is directly linked to the quality of your QB.
Let's say we sign Jefferson long term and and draft a non top 3 QB this year. Let's then go with the likelier scenario that QB turns into Christian Ponder, but we identify it early and move on. Now Jefferson is 27-28 years old and you're back to square 1. Except now Jefferson isn't ready to "ball out" for whomever is throwing the rock and his trade value is significantly lower than 2-3 years prior.
If Jefferson were an equally talented player in virtually any other position, you absolutely lock him up because his greatness isn't dependent on another person's ablity.
All I'm saying is, Jefferson's stock will literally never be higher than it is right now And if this team is truly going to rebuild, its going to need picks to do so. You are also absolutely right though that the front needs to draft better, or this whole conversation is moot.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I don’t really understand the mindset of someone who thinks
we need to burn it down even further. We
are already as uncommitted as possible. At some point you’re just saying, hey I don’t
ever want to keep my good players and I want to ensure that whatever QB I bring
in is going to have to struggle as much as possible since they have no
supporting cast with any experience. I
do agree that bringing Cousins back tends to amplify the desire to go “all-in”,
but I can’t imagine a scenario where we’re auctioning off all our good pieces
to get more draft picks. The only way we
trade guys like Jefferson is if his contract demands make it a bad choice to
keep him because too much is tied up with one guy, in which case he will get franchise
tagged.
The Vikings problem is just that we need to be better at
drafting and coaching guys up. This is a
league where you succeed based on how much production you get out of your low
cost guys. Everyone has their super
stars, it’s the other guys that determine whether you are competitive or not. The Lions and Packers are both showing success
based off having quality drafts.
^^^
Well said and nothing is guaranteed that taking 2 steps back (or 3 or 4) is a recipe for any future success...
To your last point, the last couple of drafts have been mediocre and thats on Kwesi. If these playoffs have highlighted anything, its that this is a game of attrition, especially by playoff time.
Teams with a few superstars left standing (and quality depth) have the best chance to win.
Bills are a case in point; they were a pretty banged-up team last night. It showed in the final score too.
KC had Alex Smith coming off a pro bowl year when they identified Mahomes and made the move to get him. I dont understand the "given" premise that we are going to be taking a step back if we make the move away from Kirk, yes its likely we see a dip in production from the position, but its also likely we are going to see a dip in production from the position as Kirk ages and is coming back from what is likely to be more injuries.
I am all for QBOTF this draft, I just dont think we're going to sniff the top 3 for one.
I think some fans fantasize that we're going to find a trade partner for a top 3 pick if we go "all chips in." I think thats just hope and wishful thinking. IT didnt happen last year and everyone in top 3 this year is either a division rival or as QB needy.
So we'll swirl on this a lot till March 13, but that leaves a tier 2 guy. And a tier 2 guy is going to need more time curating. In that scenario getting (a healthy) Kirko for two years is ideal. The only way Kirko returns is if he fits their financial model and their convinced he's healed/healing from the achilles.
Will be great tv to watch this all go down the next 3-4 mos.
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