Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ wiviking said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ supafreak84 said:
It's a premium article, but ESPN just released a list of the 50 biggest draft steals of the last decade. The rules were they had to be taken AFTER the first round (no 1st round picks), 2023 not eligible, and the player had to be taken at least 15 selections later then they should have been. Of that list, the Vikings garnered four selections;
7. Stefon Diggs
30. Danielle Hunter
35. Dalvin Cook
49. Brian O’Neill
I think we could safely say Jefferson would probably be #1 overall on that list if they included first round picks and Darrisaw would also be on there somewhere. Not bad for GM who was fired for the head coach turning into an asshole.
in fairness, in the NFL, how many GMs had nearly as many picks as the Rickster in the last decade? GMs are like coaches and teams tend to swap both out at about the same rate when things arent going well.
But acquiring those picks was his own doing. That is kind of like saying: In fairness, Brady should have won so many superbowls, because what other quarterback was in so many superbowls?
point is, how many other GMs were around for that entire time period that is being examined? Rick had that full 10 years, many other teams went through multiple GMS in that same time frame so yes, Rick may have "earned" some of those extra picks, but the patience of the Wilfs is also at play here.
The Vikings won 132 games and played in 9 playoff games in his tenure as GM. He doesn't need to apologize for winning games and staying employed. His winning games was a bigger factor in finding those draft steals then the Wilfs patience in retaining his services as GM. He found more players on that list then teams who turned over their GM position multiple times. Sure there were a few big misses in there (Ponder, Treadwell, Hughes, Gladney) but look at the talent acquired since he became the defacto GM in 2006;
Chad Greenway
Adrian Peterson
Percy Harvin
Harrison Smith
Xavier Rhodes
Anthony Barr
...and he went out with his last two first round picks being Jefferson and Darrisaw (in a trade down).
The guy did his job supplying this roster with talent. That is the #1 job of a general manager. Considering the turnover rate of NFL front offices, and the amount of total misses by most GM's...Rick did a great job here overall.
who is saying anything about him apologizing its a simple numbers game, he was here longer than most GMs and as such had more shots at finding those mid round steals. its not like he was some sort of draft savant that was head and shoulders above his peers, he did a nice job at the draft, but also had his shortcomings, but if you give most people the resources and knowledge he had at his disposal and and decade to do it in, they will likely find a few steals as well.
or all heil Trader Rick, whichever you want. all those accolades and the team still doesnt have shit to show for it, his successes dont outweigh the fact that he never found, or even committed to finding a franchise QB, and only paid attention to OL when it became grossly apparent that his job was going to depend on it. in an offense first, pass first league, he was drafting defense and running backs. In the end he made some good moves, but it was the moves he didnt make that will make him a non story in the Vikings history books.
Your argument is he only found those draft day steals because he had a prolonged tenure as GM and extra swings at it. I'm saying he was deserving of those extra swings because we were winning games, winning the division every other year, and he drafted some of the greatest players in team history. There's no such thing as a "drafting savant" in the GM game, and they all have misses. Even the great Bill Polian, who I consider the godfather, had some ugly drafts in Carolina and Indy. But overall the job of the GM is to supply the roster with enough talent to compete for a championship. Rick did that and we had a window, Cousins was supposed to be the missing piece and it never materialized as Zimmer imploded. I certainly had disagreements on some moves he made but the overall body of work was very good. I don't believe he should have been fired but then again I don't believe the owners know what they are doing either when it comes to football
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ wiviking said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ supafreak84 said:
It's a premium article, but ESPN just released a list of the 50 biggest draft steals of the last decade. The rules were they had to be taken AFTER the first round (no 1st round picks), 2023 not eligible, and the player had to be taken at least 15 selections later then they should have been. Of that list, the Vikings garnered four selections;
7. Stefon Diggs
30. Danielle Hunter
35. Dalvin Cook
49. Brian O’Neill
I think we could safely say Jefferson would probably be #1 overall on that list if they included first round picks and Darrisaw would also be on there somewhere. Not bad for GM who was fired for the head coach turning into an asshole.
in fairness, in the NFL, how many GMs had nearly as many picks as the Rickster in the last decade? GMs are like coaches and teams tend to swap both out at about the same rate when things arent going well.
But acquiring those picks was his own doing. That is kind of like saying: In fairness, Brady should have won so many superbowls, because what other quarterback was in so many superbowls?
point is, how many other GMs were around for that entire time period that is being examined? Rick had that full 10 years, many other teams went through multiple GMS in that same time frame so yes, Rick may have "earned" some of those extra picks, but the patience of the Wilfs is also at play here.
The Vikings won 132 games and played in 9 playoff games in his tenure as GM. He doesn't need to apologize for winning games and staying employed. His winning games was a bigger factor in finding those draft steals then the Wilfs patience in retaining his services as GM. He found more players on that list then teams who turned over their GM position multiple times. Sure there were a few big misses in there (Ponder, Treadwell, Hughes, Gladney) but look at the talent acquired since he became the defacto GM in 2006;
Chad Greenway
Adrian Peterson
Percy Harvin
Harrison Smith
Xavier Rhodes
Anthony Barr
...and he went out with his last two first round picks being Jefferson and Darrisaw (in a trade down).
The guy did his job supplying this roster with talent. That is the #1 job of a general manager. Considering the turnover rate of NFL front offices, and the amount of total misses by most GM's...Rick did a great job here overall.
who is saying anything about him apologizing its a simple numbers game, he was here longer than most GMs and as such had more shots at finding those mid round steals. its not like he was some sort of draft savant that was head and shoulders above his peers, he did a nice job at the draft, but also had his shortcomings, but if you give most people the resources and knowledge he had at his disposal and and decade to do it in, they will likely find a few steals as well.
or all heil Trader Rick, whichever you want. all those accolades and the team still doesnt have shit to show for it, his successes dont outweigh the fact that he never found, or even committed to finding a franchise QB, and only paid attention to OL when it became grossly apparent that his job was going to depend on it. in an offense first, pass first league, he was drafting defense and running backs. In the end he made some good moves, but it was the moves he didnt make that will make him a non story in the Vikings history books.
Your argument is he only found those draft day steals because he had a prolonged tenure as GM and extra swings at it. I'm saying he was deserving of those extra swings because we were winning games, winning the division every other year, and he drafted some of the greatest players in team history. There's no such thing as a "drafting savant" in the GM game, and they all have misses. Even the great Bill Polian, who I consider the godfather, had some ugly drafts in Carolina and Indy. But overall the job of the GM is to supply the roster with enough talent to compete for a championship. Rick did that and we had a window, Cousins was supposed to be the missing piece and it never materialized as Zimmer imploded. I certainly had disagreements on some moves he made but the overall body of work was very good. I don't believe he should have been fired but then again I don't believe the owners know what they are doing either when it comes to football
Yeah, it is kinda funny claiming Rick only had picks cuz Rick sucked, or that Rick only had picks cuz he traded away all his good picks. Rick was a great manipulator of draft picks. He moved well, dropped when he saw value and usually came out with a steal. This article attests to that.
Rick really struggled and ultimately was fired because he couldn't draft a QB (or wouldn't draft a QB once he thought he had his guy) and because he sucked at drafting offensive lineman. Cousins could have been the answer, but the line really affected his play (insert cousins hating dog whistle here). Who knows, maybe because if we had a good OC, they got hired as a HC the following season. Maybe because Sparano died and left the Oline room in disarray. Maybe because Zim was a defensive coach and couldn't figure out the offensive side.
Lots of excuses, but ultimately it was the lack of QB play that doomed him. We ended up paying for Cousins and I think that was the beginning of the end for Rick and Zim.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ wiviking said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ supafreak84 said:
It's a premium article, but ESPN just released a list of the 50 biggest draft steals of the last decade. The rules were they had to be taken AFTER the first round (no 1st round picks), 2023 not eligible, and the player had to be taken at least 15 selections later then they should have been. Of that list, the Vikings garnered four selections;
7. Stefon Diggs
30. Danielle Hunter
35. Dalvin Cook
49. Brian O’Neill
I think we could safely say Jefferson would probably be #1 overall on that list if they included first round picks and Darrisaw would also be on there somewhere. Not bad for GM who was fired for the head coach turning into an asshole.
in fairness, in the NFL, how many GMs had nearly as many picks as the Rickster in the last decade? GMs are like coaches and teams tend to swap both out at about the same rate when things arent going well.
But acquiring those picks was his own doing. That is kind of like saying: In fairness, Brady should have won so many superbowls, because what other quarterback was in so many superbowls?
point is, how many other GMs were around for that entire time period that is being examined? Rick had that full 10 years, many other teams went through multiple GMS in that same time frame so yes, Rick may have "earned" some of those extra picks, but the patience of the Wilfs is also at play here.
The Vikings won 132 games and played in 9 playoff games in his tenure as GM. He doesn't need to apologize for winning games and staying employed. His winning games was a bigger factor in finding those draft steals then the Wilfs patience in retaining his services as GM. He found more players on that list then teams who turned over their GM position multiple times. Sure there were a few big misses in there (Ponder, Treadwell, Hughes, Gladney) but look at the talent acquired since he became the defacto GM in 2006;
Chad Greenway
Adrian Peterson
Percy Harvin
Harrison Smith
Xavier Rhodes
Anthony Barr
...and he went out with his last two first round picks being Jefferson and Darrisaw (in a trade down).
The guy did his job supplying this roster with talent. That is the #1 job of a general manager. Considering the turnover rate of NFL front offices, and the amount of total misses by most GM's...Rick did a great job here overall.
Yeah, it is kinda funny claiming Rick only had picks cuz Rick sucked, or that Rick only had picks cuz he traded away all his good picks. Rick was a great manipulator of draft picks. He moved well, dropped when he saw value and usually came out with a steal. This article attests to that.
Rick really struggled and ultimately was fired because he couldn't draft a QB (or wouldn't draft a QB once he thought he had his guy) and because he sucked at drafting offensive lineman. Cousins could have been the answer, but the line really affected his play (insert cousins hating dog whistle here). Who knows, maybe because if we had a good OC, they got hired as a HC the following season. Maybe because Sparano died and left the Oline room in disarray. Maybe because Zim was a defensive coach and couldn't figure out the offensive side.
Lots of excuses, but ultimately it was the lack of QB play that doomed him. We ended up paying for Cousins and I think that was the beginning of the end for Rick and Zim.
And let's dig into the topic of quarterbacks. The Vikings only drafted in the top 10 three times while Spielman was the GM or the defacto GM. 2007 when we drafted Adrian Peterson (7th), 2012 when we drafted Matt Kalil (4th), and 2014 when we drafted Anthony Barr (9th).
- In 2011 we win a completely meaningless game week 16 on the road at Washington, which moved us from the first overall pick to the third overall pick (which we would swap with Cleveland for the 4th pick). We lose that meaningless game and we would have had the #1 overall pick which would have been Andrew Luck. Imagine how that one game shifted the fortunes of this franchise and the perception of Spielman.
- In the 2011 draft we took a swing at Ponder and missed. He did however follow that up by drafting Kyle Rudolph in the second round who would go on to catch more touchdown passes by any TE in team history (by double).
- in 2014 we trade back up into the first round to take Teddy Bridgewater. Teddy showed a lot of promise before his career was derailed by the catastrophic leg injury heading into year three. We don't know how his career might have turned out otherwise but he was a Spielman pick that he was extremely high on. For the record, I was a big Derek Carr guy that year and was pretty upset when we drafted Bridgewater over him.
From that point on we were never a bad enough team to be in position to draft an elite signal caller, and it's why we broke the bank in free agency bringing in Cousins in free agency. Cousins was supposed to be the missing piece on an otherwise championship caliber roster. Instead Zimmer implodes, his message grew stale with the players, and here we are now...
What difference does it make how long Rick was employed? This is of the last decade. It wouldn’t matter if a team had 10 GMs over those 10 years.
Evenly split, each team should have had 1.56 players make the list. The fact the Vikings had 4 is quite impressive.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
What difference does it make how long Rick was employed? This is of the last decade. It wouldn’t matter if a team had 10 GMs over those 10 years.
Evenly split, each team should have had 1.56 players make the list. The fact the Vikings had 4 is quite impressive.
Because it wasn't about rhe teams success, the OP made it about Rick as a GM, I was simply saying that any GM that was good or lucky enough to have 10 years worth of picks, especially one that was notorious for trading down or out of the first round to accumulate more mid round picks, should have more than his share on that list considering many teams had multiple GMs over that time frame. Rick had more picks so he should have more than AVG hits, he had more picks so he should have more than Avg misses as well, it was simply a numbers thing and that was his strategy.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
What difference does it make how long Rick was employed? This is of the last decade. It wouldn’t matter if a team had 10 GMs over those 10 years.
Evenly split, each team should have had 1.56 players make the list. The fact the Vikings had 4 is quite impressive.
This, exactly...
Quote: @JimmyinSD said: it
@ AGRforever said:
What difference does it make how long Rick was employed? This is of the last decade. It wouldn’t matter if a team had 10 GMs over those 10 years.
Evenly split, each team should have had 1.56 players make the list. The fact the Vikings had 4 is quite impressive.
Because it wasn't about rhe teams success, the OP made it about Rick as a GM, I was simply saying that any GM that was good or lucky enough to have 10 years worth of picks, especially one that was notorious for trading down or out of the first round to accumulate more mid round picks, should have more than his share on that list considering many teams had multiple GMs over that time frame. Rick had more picks so he should have more than AVG hits, he had more picks so he should have more than Avg misses as well, it was simply a numbers thing and that was his strategy.
In fairness, I dont recall any trade downs for any of those 4 picks.
But it is fair to say he had additional chances. If you want that number you could overlay rounds to sucess rate. I’m not about to figure that out. The smart GMs that traded with him thought they were getting the deal at the time.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
What difference does it make how long Rick was employed? This is of the last decade. It wouldn’t matter if a team had 10 GMs over those 10 years.
Evenly split, each team should have had 1.56 players make the list. The fact the Vikings had 4 is quite impressive.
I agree...
Rick S had some trade-downs over the years that I wasn't comfortable with but his drafting overall was good.
RS had two big problems over his tenure:
1). He was in a division with Rogers in his prime and with a good surround
2). I strongly suspect his major accountabilities as a GM transcended drafting. We're talking culture, morale, team leadership etc.
This is where he fell short and it cost him one of the 32 gm jobs in the league. I have no doubt that level of team dysfunction cost them some wins on the field too.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
What difference does it make how long Rick was employed? This is of the last decade. It wouldn’t matter if a team had 10 GMs over those 10 years.
Evenly split, each team should have had 1.56 players make the list. The fact the Vikings had 4 is quite impressive.
I was just doing the math when I saw your post AGR. To put it another way, Vikings picks compose 8% of the top 50. If every teams did an equal job of drafting, each team should have 1.56 player on the list or 3.12%. So, the Vikes actually had more than twice the number of players on the list than an average team.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ AGRforever said:
What difference does it make how long Rick was employed? This is of the last decade. It wouldn’t matter if a team had 10 GMs over those 10 years.
Evenly split, each team should have had 1.56 players make the list. The fact the Vikings had 4 is quite impressive.
I agree...
Rick S had some trade-downs over the years that I wasn't comfortable with but his drafting overall was good.
RS had two big problems over his tenure:
1). He was in a division with Rogers in his prime and with a good surround
2). I strongly suspect his major accountabilities as a GM transcended drafting. We're talking culture, morale, team leadership etc.
This is where he fell short and it cost him one of the 32 gm jobs in the league. I have no doubt that level of team dysfunction cost them some wins on the field too.
I agree, but any trade down Rick ever made pales in comparison to Kwesi's trade with the Lions. You would never see a fleecing like that and he would never trade within the division and allow rivals teams to move up for sorely needed playmakers.
But yeah even with Rodgers in his prime we won that division three times with the likes of Case Keenum and Teddy Bridgewater at quarterback. Goes to show the overall strength of our roster was very good and I wouldnt call it a stretch to say we had the most talented roster in football a couple of those years.
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