Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Thanks for clarifying Geoff, I was kinda confused about the dead money doesn't matter statement.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Dead money counts against the salary cap 100% doesn't it? So $30M in dead money means we effectively have $30M less to spend in the current year?
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Dead money counts against the salary cap 100% doesn't it? So $30M in dead money means we effectively have $30M less to spend in the current year?
exactly. dead money is that magic money that leads some to believe that the cap is a myth, that you can just push bonuses and other cap hits into future years and deal with them then, well this is what they turn into.. dead money that becomes somebody elses problem because the players that a GM thought would be worth over spending on, actually werent, he gets fired and the dead caps hits from those players becomes the new GMs problem.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Dead money counts against the salary cap 100% doesn't it? So $30M in dead money means we effectively have $30M less to spend in the current year?
exactly. dead money is that magic money that leads some to believe that the cap is a myth, that you can just push bonuses and other cap hits into future years and deal with them then, well this is what they turn into.. dead money that becomes somebody elses problem because the players that a GM thought would be worth over spending on, actually werent, he gets fired and the dead caps hits from those players becomes the new GMs problem.
The cap is a myth thing is meant for folks who incorrectly think it's a stone tablet, when in reality it's elastic. Flexible, adjustable, bendable, posable in a hundred dimensions. Dead money isn't etched in stone either. It can be diminished or eliminated altogether with restructures or extensions.
Guess who entered free agency with the most dead money? The Eagles at $46M. Vikings ranked 21st with $3.8M. And, yes, that has since changed with the Thielen and Kendricks release.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Dead money counts against the salary cap 100% doesn't it? So $30M in dead money means we effectively have $30M less to spend in the current year?
exactly. dead money is that magic money that leads some to believe that the cap is a myth, that you can just push bonuses and other cap hits into future years and deal with them then, well this is what they turn into.. dead money that becomes somebody elses problem because the players that a GM thought would be worth over spending on, actually werent, he gets fired and the dead caps hits from those players becomes the new GMs problem.
The cap is a myth thing is meant for folks who incorrectly think it's a stone tablet, when in reality it's elastic. Flexible, adjustable, bendable, posable in a hundred dimensions. Dead money isn't etched in stone either. It can be diminished or eliminated altogether with restructures or extensions.
Guess who entered free agency with the most dead money? The Eagles at $46M. Vikings ranked 21st with $3.8M. And, yes, that has since changed with the Thielen and Kendricks release.
it all has to be paid at some point, you can play all the contractual voodoo games you want, but in the end, if its put into a contract and paid out, it will hit the Vikings cap some year. Its not a myth, its called robbing from peter to pay paul, and its really not a good business practice, sure its handy and effective once in a while, but at some point peter wants his and then shit gets really tough, the Vikings are playing closer and closer to that point each year with trying to put a serviceable team around bad contracts that players performance doesnt meet.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Obviously, but most folks should have known that the restructures would eventually lead to this result. It happened as you know because of the 181.2M salary cap number in 2021. Almost all teams had to add void years and spread money out.
So it really does not matter this year because it is off the books next year. It was inevitable and will be inevitable with Cousins contract when they finally have to move on.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Dead money counts against the salary cap 100% doesn't it? So $30M in dead money means we effectively have $30M less to spend in the current year?
exactly. dead money is that magic money that leads some to believe that the cap is a myth, that you can just push bonuses and other cap hits into future years and deal with them then, well this is what they turn into.. dead money that becomes somebody elses problem because the players that a GM thought would be worth over spending on, actually werent, he gets fired and the dead caps hits from those players becomes the new GMs problem.
The cap is a myth thing is meant for folks who incorrectly think it's a stone tablet, when in reality it's elastic. Flexible, adjustable, bendable, posable in a hundred dimensions. Dead money isn't etched in stone either. It can be diminished or eliminated altogether with restructures or extensions.
Guess who entered free agency with the most dead money? The Eagles at $46M. Vikings ranked 21st with $3.8M. And, yes, that has since changed with the Thielen and Kendricks release.
it all has to be paid at some point, you can play all the contractual voodoo games you want, but in the end, if its put into a contract and paid out, it will hit the Vikings cap some year. Its not a myth, its called robbing from peter to pay paul, and its really not a good business practice, sure its handy and effective once in a while, but at some point peter wants his and then shit gets really tough, the Vikings are playing closer and closer to that point each year with trying to put a serviceable team around bad contracts that players performance doesnt meet.
I totally agree that dead money is bad because you’re generally
paying players that aren’t here anymore, and that’s inefficient, but I don’t
think it’s always bad. GMs factor it
into the equation. I think a lot of cap
management is how do you maximize your window.
There are some years where you are going to be competitive and some
years where you aren’t. A good cap
manager is able to take money from those years where you plan on not being competitive
and use it to increase your competitiveness in all the other years. I think it’s key to minimize how many down
years you have and try to squish all the dead cap into as small a time period
as possible.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Dead money counts against the salary cap 100% doesn't it? So $30M in dead money means we effectively have $30M less to spend in the current year?
exactly. dead money is that magic money that leads some to believe that the cap is a myth, that you can just push bonuses and other cap hits into future years and deal with them then, well this is what they turn into.. dead money that becomes somebody elses problem because the players that a GM thought would be worth over spending on, actually werent, he gets fired and the dead caps hits from those players becomes the new GMs problem.
The cap is a myth thing is meant for folks who incorrectly think it's a stone tablet, when in reality it's elastic. Flexible, adjustable, bendable, posable in a hundred dimensions. Dead money isn't etched in stone either. It can be diminished or eliminated altogether with restructures or extensions.
Guess who entered free agency with the most dead money? The Eagles at $46M. Vikings ranked 21st with $3.8M. And, yes, that has since changed with the Thielen and Kendricks release.
it all has to be paid at some point, you can play all the contractual voodoo games you want, but in the end, if its put into a contract and paid out, it will hit the Vikings cap some year. Its not a myth, its called robbing from peter to pay paul, and its really not a good business practice, sure its handy and effective once in a while, but at some point peter wants his and then shit gets really tough, the Vikings are playing closer and closer to that point each year with trying to put a serviceable team around bad contracts that players performance doesnt meet.
I totally agree that dead money is bad because you’re generally
paying players that aren’t here anymore, and that’s inefficient, but I don’t
think it’s always bad. GMs factor it
into the equation. I think a lot of cap
management is how do you maximize your window.
There are some years where you are going to be competitive and some
years where you aren’t. A good cap
manager is able to take money from those years where you plan on not being competitive
and use it to increase your competitiveness in all the other years. I think it’s key to minimize how many down
years you have and try to squish all the dead cap into as small a time period
as possible.
I agree, I tried to acknowledge that point when I pointed out that it is handy and effective once in a while, and that is how the team used to operate, front loading deals on older players to make them easier to cut later, and then rolling the dice when we thought we had a roster to do it with. We've been doing that non stop since they signed Kirk, but we are 5 years in and really havent made any headway in terms of getting closer to a championship, and IMO seem to be regressing from a talent level, so why not just get all square with Peter now and save those future years, for a future need? Hell we may go from winning the division to the basement in 1 year, I doubt it, but while we are trying to get under the cap, the laughing stock of last offseason is spending without reserve and improving their roster.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Dead money counts against the salary cap 100% doesn't it? So $30M in dead money means we effectively have $30M less to spend in the current year?
exactly. dead money is that magic money that leads some to believe that the cap is a myth, that you can just push bonuses and other cap hits into future years and deal with them then, well this is what they turn into.. dead money that becomes somebody elses problem because the players that a GM thought would be worth over spending on, actually werent, he gets fired and the dead caps hits from those players becomes the new GMs problem.
The cap is a myth thing is meant for folks who incorrectly think it's a stone tablet, when in reality it's elastic. Flexible, adjustable, bendable, posable in a hundred dimensions. Dead money isn't etched in stone either. It can be diminished or eliminated altogether with restructures or extensions.
Guess who entered free agency with the most dead money? The Eagles at $46M. Vikings ranked 21st with $3.8M. And, yes, that has since changed with the Thielen and Kendricks release.
it all has to be paid at some point, you can play all the contractual voodoo games you want, but in the end, if its put into a contract and paid out, it will hit the Vikings cap some year. Its not a myth, its called robbing from peter to pay paul, and its really not a good business practice, sure its handy and effective once in a while, but at some point peter wants his and then shit gets really tough, the Vikings are playing closer and closer to that point each year with trying to put a serviceable team around bad contracts that players performance doesnt meet.
But some of you seem to think the Vikings are the only one playing this game. Again, before free agency, the Vikings had $3.8M dead. The Eagles had $46M. Now, after releasing Kendricks and Thielen, the Vikings have $27M and nearly all of that will be gone next season. But we'll likely generate more by then. The point is that it fluctuates wildly each year and it really has little bearing on success or failure. It's not ideal; it's inefficient. But it's just not as crippling as some of you make it sound. It's far more important to have a QB.
Saints were, what, $55M over the cap when they signed Derek Carr to a $150M contract? Guessing you think that was foolish. Can kicking. I'm no Carr fan, but I'll bet you a lutefisk sandwich that the Saints improve quite a bit in 2023. Ya gotta have a QB.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Vikings weren't going to be able to touch that, good for him. Leaves a decent sized hole along the Vikings front 3 and accelerates $7.5M in dead money onto the 2023 cap. Nearly up to $30M in dead money at this point.
Dead money does not matter. Cap space matters.
From what perspective, talking about 2024 or roster building as a whole? Dead money matters quite a bit in the current year.
Dead money counts against the salary cap 100% doesn't it? So $30M in dead money means we effectively have $30M less to spend in the current year?
exactly. dead money is that magic money that leads some to believe that the cap is a myth, that you can just push bonuses and other cap hits into future years and deal with them then, well this is what they turn into.. dead money that becomes somebody elses problem because the players that a GM thought would be worth over spending on, actually werent, he gets fired and the dead caps hits from those players becomes the new GMs problem.
The cap is a myth thing is meant for folks who incorrectly think it's a stone tablet, when in reality it's elastic. Flexible, adjustable, bendable, posable in a hundred dimensions. Dead money isn't etched in stone either. It can be diminished or eliminated altogether with restructures or extensions.
Guess who entered free agency with the most dead money? The Eagles at $46M. Vikings ranked 21st with $3.8M. And, yes, that has since changed with the Thielen and Kendricks release.
it all has to be paid at some point, you can play all the contractual voodoo games you want, but in the end, if its put into a contract and paid out, it will hit the Vikings cap some year. Its not a myth, its called robbing from peter to pay paul, and its really not a good business practice, sure its handy and effective once in a while, but at some point peter wants his and then shit gets really tough, the Vikings are playing closer and closer to that point each year with trying to put a serviceable team around bad contracts that players performance doesnt meet.
But some of you seem to think the Vikings are the only one playing this game. Again, before free agency, the Vikings had $3.8M dead. The Eagles had $46M. Now, after releasing Kendricks and Thielen, the Vikings have $27M and nearly all of that will be gone next season. But we'll likely generate more by then. The point is that it fluctuates wildly each year and it really has little bearing on success or failure. It's not ideal; it's inefficient. But it's just not as crippling as some of you make it sound. It's far more important to have a QB.
Saints were, what, $55M over the cap when they signed Derek Carr to a $150M contract? Guessing you think that was foolish. Can kicking. I'm no Carr fan, but I'll bet you a lutefisk sandwich that the Saints improve quite a bit in 2023. Ya gotta have a QB.
Kicking the can down the road isn't always bad, depending on what you're trying to accomplish. There also is an aspect to what your opportunities are to get out of deals. So it has to be graded on a case by case basis. Some teams also are strong believer in the time value of cap space. E.G opening up cap today is worth more on a per dollar basis than that dollar is worth in the future. With the cap continually rising it isn't a bad argument either.
But what I would hold is that kicking the can does not necessarily enable dead money depending on how you terminate the deal. The Tomlinson contract was a bit worse since the Vikings didn't have many opportunities to get out clean and had written a deal that was going to be awfully hard to write an extension on top of.
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