I can't think of a single good reason to extend Cousins before the draft. And if you draft a potential QB of the future, that changes the dynamic of the situation. I think Cousins needs to improve another level before we talk about handing him the a contract that makes him a Viking for the next 4-6 years, which is 50-50 on being longer than KAM/KOC's Viking tenure if things don't go well.
Cousins at $40M, either needs to be an elite offense that dominates other teams regardless of our defense, or he needs to be a command a top 10 offense with less investment in the offense, such that we can have a top 10 defense as well. Cousins + JJ + Darrisaw + O'Neill + Hockenson at market value means bargain players at every other position on offense or very minimal draft picks on offense as we'll need to invest in our defense to get it up to snuff or we do the Rams model and mortgage the future for a 1-2 year window, which kind of negates a long term investment in Cousins.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
I just think again, Kirk and his agent have us by the balls with no real options at upgrading the position, leaving us and our eternally optimistic "win now" owners to shell out top dollar to a good, not great QB. As much as people may dislike what the Raiders did with Carr....I admire them just ripping the bandaid off and realizing they aren't going anywhere with Carr and it was time for a change. The Vikings will continue on with Kirk until the wheels absolutely fall off and a rebuild is forced.
Carr isn't Cousins. Carr was benched.
They are considered by most in league circles to be similarly tiered QB's. Not elite. Similar statistics and similar team success. The Raiders made the decision they were no longer going to pay a guy top dollar, when they believed they could upgrade the position and allocate their cap dollars elsewhere. I admire their decision to be bold and cut that cord, even if that means they flounder for a year or two until they find what they want from the position. The Wilf's will continue paying Kirk top dollar for good, not great results. The Raiders are doing things the right way while Kirk and his agent continue to have the Vikings bent over a barrel. We don't have the cap money or draft picks/draft position to realistically move on and try to upgrade the position, which puts Cousins and his agent in a position of power dictating terms. Been that way for about three years now and that's not going to be changing anytime soon.
Yeah, I don't think they're in the same tier at all.
We'll see if the Raiders are "doing things the right way" based on how Stidham does. Who knows, maybe they love the kid. Or maybe they trade for Lamar Jackson. That might be the best way to avoid starting 12 QBs in 5 seasons like Washington post Cousins.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
I just think again, Kirk and his agent have us by the balls with no real options at upgrading the position, leaving us and our eternally optimistic "win now" owners to shell out top dollar to a good, not great QB. As much as people may dislike what the Raiders did with Carr....I admire them just ripping the bandaid off and realizing they aren't going anywhere with Carr and it was time for a change. The Vikings will continue on with Kirk until the wheels absolutely fall off and a rebuild is forced.
Carr isn't Cousins. Carr was benched.
They are considered by most in league circles to be similarly tiered QB's. Not elite. Similar statistics and similar team success. The Raiders made the decision they were no longer going to pay a guy top dollar, when they believed they could upgrade the position and allocate their cap dollars elsewhere. I admire their decision to be bold and cut that cord, even if that means they flounder for a year or two until they find what they want from the position. The Wilf's will continue paying Kirk top dollar for good, not great results. The Raiders are doing things the right way while Kirk and his agent continue to have the Vikings bent over a barrel. We don't have the cap money or draft picks/draft position to realistically move on and try to upgrade the position, which puts Cousins and his agent in a position of power dictating terms. Been that way for about three years now and that's not going to be changing anytime soon.
Yeah, I don't think they're in the same tier at all.
We'll see if the Raiders are "doing things the right way" based on how Stidham does. Who knows, maybe they love the kid. Or maybe they trade for Lamar Jackson. That might be the best way to avoid starting 12 QBs in 5 seasons like Washington post Cousins.
Rodgers in Vegas sounds plausible to me. Reconnect with Adams.
Quote: @1VikesFan said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
I just think again, Kirk and his agent have us by the balls with no real options at upgrading the position, leaving us and our eternally optimistic "win now" owners to shell out top dollar to a good, not great QB. As much as people may dislike what the Raiders did with Carr....I admire them just ripping the bandaid off and realizing they aren't going anywhere with Carr and it was time for a change. The Vikings will continue on with Kirk until the wheels absolutely fall off and a rebuild is forced.
Carr isn't Cousins. Carr was benched.
They are considered by most in league circles to be similarly tiered QB's. Not elite. Similar statistics and similar team success. The Raiders made the decision they were no longer going to pay a guy top dollar, when they believed they could upgrade the position and allocate their cap dollars elsewhere. I admire their decision to be bold and cut that cord, even if that means they flounder for a year or two until they find what they want from the position. The Wilf's will continue paying Kirk top dollar for good, not great results. The Raiders are doing things the right way while Kirk and his agent continue to have the Vikings bent over a barrel. We don't have the cap money or draft picks/draft position to realistically move on and try to upgrade the position, which puts Cousins and his agent in a position of power dictating terms. Been that way for about three years now and that's not going to be changing anytime soon.
Yeah, I don't think they're in the same tier at all.
We'll see if the Raiders are "doing things the right way" based on how Stidham does. Who knows, maybe they love the kid. Or maybe they trade for Lamar Jackson. That might be the best way to avoid starting 12 QBs in 5 seasons like Washington post Cousins.
Rodgers in Vegas sounds plausible to me. Reconnect with Adams.
Yeah, I could see that happening too.
Quote: @1VikesFan said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
I just think again, Kirk and his agent have us by the balls with no real options at upgrading the position, leaving us and our eternally optimistic "win now" owners to shell out top dollar to a good, not great QB. As much as people may dislike what the Raiders did with Carr....I admire them just ripping the bandaid off and realizing they aren't going anywhere with Carr and it was time for a change. The Vikings will continue on with Kirk until the wheels absolutely fall off and a rebuild is forced.
Carr isn't Cousins. Carr was benched.
They are considered by most in league circles to be similarly tiered QB's. Not elite. Similar statistics and similar team success. The Raiders made the decision they were no longer going to pay a guy top dollar, when they believed they could upgrade the position and allocate their cap dollars elsewhere. I admire their decision to be bold and cut that cord, even if that means they flounder for a year or two until they find what they want from the position. The Wilf's will continue paying Kirk top dollar for good, not great results. The Raiders are doing things the right way while Kirk and his agent continue to have the Vikings bent over a barrel. We don't have the cap money or draft picks/draft position to realistically move on and try to upgrade the position, which puts Cousins and his agent in a position of power dictating terms. Been that way for about three years now and that's not going to be changing anytime soon.
Yeah, I don't think they're in the same tier at all.
We'll see if the Raiders are "doing things the right way" based on how Stidham does. Who knows, maybe they love the kid. Or maybe they trade for Lamar Jackson. That might be the best way to avoid starting 12 QBs in 5 seasons like Washington post Cousins.
Rodgers in Vegas sounds plausible to me. Reconnect with Adams.
And its a huge FU to the donkeys who thought they were getting him last year and then made a seriously desperate move that appears to have failed miserably.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
I just think again, Kirk and his agent have us by the balls with no real options at upgrading the position, leaving us and our eternally optimistic "win now" owners to shell out top dollar to a good, not great QB. As much as people may dislike what the Raiders did with Carr....I admire them just ripping the bandaid off and realizing they aren't going anywhere with Carr and it was time for a change. The Vikings will continue on with Kirk until the wheels absolutely fall off and a rebuild is forced.
Carr isn't Cousins. Carr was benched.
They are considered by most in league circles to be similarly tiered QB's. Not elite. Similar statistics and similar team success. The Raiders made the decision they were no longer going to pay a guy top dollar, when they believed they could upgrade the position and allocate their cap dollars elsewhere. I admire their decision to be bold and cut that cord, even if that means they flounder for a year or two until they find what they want from the position. The Wilf's will continue paying Kirk top dollar for good, not great results. The Raiders are doing things the right way while Kirk and his agent continue to have the Vikings bent over a barrel. We don't have the cap money or draft picks/draft position to realistically move on and try to upgrade the position, which puts Cousins and his agent in a position of power dictating terms. Been that way for about three years now and that's not going to be changing anytime soon.
Yeah, I don't think they're in the same tier at all.
We'll see if the Raiders are "doing things the right way" based on how Stidham does. Who knows, maybe they love the kid. Or maybe they trade for Lamar Jackson. That might be the best way to avoid starting 12 QBs in 5 seasons like Washington post Cousins.
They also draft 7th overall and are in the wheelhouse to grab a QB where they are at or are at least in position to move up to do so if they choose. The Raiders now have options at QB and are going to be able to invest all the money they were spending on Carr in upgrading several other positions that are sorely needed. It's addition by subtraction and I'm not so sure the Vikings wouldn't have been better served in following this model with Cousins, especially on the heels of our first round playoff exit and cap issues that are going to force difficult decisions on several key players.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
I just think again, Kirk and his agent have us by the balls with no real options at upgrading the position, leaving us and our eternally optimistic "win now" owners to shell out top dollar to a good, not great QB. As much as people may dislike what the Raiders did with Carr....I admire them just ripping the bandaid off and realizing they aren't going anywhere with Carr and it was time for a change. The Vikings will continue on with Kirk until the wheels absolutely fall off and a rebuild is forced.
Carr isn't Cousins. Carr was benched.
They are considered by most in league circles to be similarly tiered QB's. Not elite. Similar statistics and similar team success. The Raiders made the decision they were no longer going to pay a guy top dollar, when they believed they could upgrade the position and allocate their cap dollars elsewhere. I admire their decision to be bold and cut that cord, even if that means they flounder for a year or two until they find what they want from the position. The Wilf's will continue paying Kirk top dollar for good, not great results. The Raiders are doing things the right way while Kirk and his agent continue to have the Vikings bent over a barrel. We don't have the cap money or draft picks/draft position to realistically move on and try to upgrade the position, which puts Cousins and his agent in a position of power dictating terms. Been that way for about three years now and that's not going to be changing anytime soon.
Yeah, I don't think they're in the same tier at all.
We'll see if the Raiders are "doing things the right way" based on how Stidham does. Who knows, maybe they love the kid. Or maybe they trade for Lamar Jackson. That might be the best way to avoid starting 12 QBs in 5 seasons like Washington post Cousins.
They also draft 7th overall and are in the wheelhouse to grab a QB where they are at or are at least in position to move up to do so if they choose. The Raiders now have options at QB and are going to be able to invest all the money they were spending on Carr in upgrading several other positions that are sorely needed. It's addition by subtraction and I'm not so sure the Vikings wouldn't have been better served in following this model with Cousins, especially on the heels of our first round playoff exit and cap issues that are going to force difficult decisions on several key players.
Well we'll see. Having the money to invest in other positions won't mean much if they replace Carr with the next Wilson or Darnold or Mayfield or Haskins or Rosen.
But Carr was pretty bad last year, so they probably think he fell below the keep/replace threshold. It's funny, a lot of the criticisms about Carr last year were the same criticisms from his draft profile.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said: I lied--last note-- it's funny to me most of this board is ready to ship off Dalvin, Thielen, Z'Darius, Kendricks, Smith, even Hunter, but many of these same posters are still on board with paying Kirk on his terms ad infinitum even though he's much older and arguably (relative to his position), about equally as proficient. The Kirk debate has gotten out of control on both sides haha.
You can't compare QBs to other positions. Never mind that QBs are, by far, the most important position on the team, a WR at 32 is much older than a QB at 34. What's more, I would argue that how Cousins ranks among other players at his position (his value over replacement) is much higher than all but maybe one player on the Vikings--Jefferson. Maybe Hunter?
IOW, if we lost Hunter, replacing what he gives us would be a lot easier than replacing what Cousins gives us. There are more than just a handful of teams who have been looking for a QB for 40 years.
I agree, QB is kind of a standalone question. I am fine if they extend Kirk, but they need to really look at what it will take to win playoff games and get to a Super Bowl. Outside of the luck any team needs I think you're talking about a top 10 offense and a top 12'ish or so defense. The offense they can get done, but how far out is the defense? Flores will be a breath of fresh air but its probably a bit naive to think they'll go from the bottom 1/3 to top 1/3 in a single year. Especially since they are going to have take away parts to build it back better.
The timeline may end up trumping all other logic. Although I would be shocked to see this FO get creative with a contract, generally an extension lowers the cap numbers in the first year or two of a deal. So that gets Kirk on a good cap number in 2023 and 2024. Will that money incrementally fix the defense? Probably not. Maybe in 2024 they would be getting closer. But point is, that gives you a single year before Kirk's cap number is back to the market rate.
Just to play it out, if you go the rookie QB route they will not help you this season with Kirk on the roster. But come 2024 you end up with more incremental money to spend on the roster and have that benefit through 2026 before a 5th year option in 2027. So you end up with 3 opportunities on a more ideal timeline.
Of course you need to get the QB right. But I would actually go out on a limb and say with a rookie QB, even if you missed, you may get 2 stabs at it. Not an ideal use of resources but just another way to look at it. They'd still be competitive in 2023 but everyone would know they're hoping to achieve more in 2024+
I think the bottom line is that Cousins accelerated cap number cannot coexist with JJ's accelerated cap number. But they don't have to for another few years.
For example, we could give Cousins a 3 or 4 year deal, dropping his cap number this year only marginally--saving, say, $10M instead of $20M--in order to avoid big increases down the road. Then give JJ the moon on a long term deal where his cap acceleration occurs in its 3rd season (like most big contracts), which is when Cousins turns 38 and will be ready for either age-related decline (read: pay cuts) or the pasture. We'll need to have his replacement on board by then, hopefully with at least a year of development under his belt.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
I just think again, Kirk and his agent have us by the balls with no real options at upgrading the position, leaving us and our eternally optimistic "win now" owners to shell out top dollar to a good, not great QB. As much as people may dislike what the Raiders did with Carr....I admire them just ripping the bandaid off and realizing they aren't going anywhere with Carr and it was time for a change. The Vikings will continue on with Kirk until the wheels absolutely fall off and a rebuild is forced.
Carr isn't Cousins. Carr was benched.
They are considered by most in league circles to be similarly tiered QB's. Not elite. Similar statistics and similar team success. The Raiders made the decision they were no longer going to pay a guy top dollar, when they believed they could upgrade the position and allocate their cap dollars elsewhere. I admire their decision to be bold and cut that cord, even if that means they flounder for a year or two until they find what they want from the position. The Wilf's will continue paying Kirk top dollar for good, not great results. The Raiders are doing things the right way while Kirk and his agent continue to have the Vikings bent over a barrel. We don't have the cap money or draft picks/draft position to realistically move on and try to upgrade the position, which puts Cousins and his agent in a position of power dictating terms. Been that way for about three years now and that's not going to be changing anytime soon.
A lot have suggested Carr's contract will play into a potential extension for Kirk, I agree with that. But it ultimately sets the floor not the price Kirk should be shooting for. Performance wise Kirk is a step up from Carr.
Quote: @MaroonBells said "supafreak84" said"MaroonBells" said"supafreak84" said"MaroonBells" said"supafreak84" said:I just think again, Kirk and his agent have us by the balls with no real options at upgrading the position, leaving us and our eternally optimistic "win now" owners to shell out top dollar to a good, not great QB. As much as people may dislike what the Raiders did with Carr....I admire them just ripping the bandaid off and realizing they aren't going anywhere with Carr and it was time for a change. The Vikings will continue on with Kirk until the wheels absolutely fall off and a rebuild is forced. Carr isn't Cousins. Carr was benched. They are considered by most in league circles to be similarly tiered QB's. Not elite. Similar statistics and similar team success. The Raiders made the decision they were no longer going to pay a guy top dollar, when they believed they could upgrade the position and allocate their cap dollars elsewhere. I admire their decision to be bold and cut that cord, even if that means they flounder for a year or two until they find what they want from the position. The Wilf's will continue paying Kirk top dollar for good, not great results. The Raiders are doing things the right way while Kirk and his agent continue to have the Vikings bent over a barrel. We don't have the cap money or draft picks/draft position to realistically move on and try to upgrade the position, which puts Cousins and his agent in a position of power dictating terms. Been that way for about three years now and that's not going to be changing anytime soon. Yeah, I don't think they're in the same tier at all.
We'll see if the Raiders are "doing things the right way" based on how Stidham does. Who knows, maybe they love the kid. Or maybe they trade for Lamar Jackson. That might be the best way to avoid starting 12 QBs in 5 seasons like Washington post Cousins. They also draft 7th overall and are in the wheelhouse to grab a QB where they are at or are at least in position to move up to do so if they choose. The Raiders now have options at QB and are going to be able to invest all the money they were spending on Carr in upgrading several other positions that are sorely needed. It's addition by subtraction and I'm not so sure the Vikings wouldn't have been better served in following this model with Cousins, especially on the heels of our first round playoff exit and cap issues that are going to force difficult decisions on several key players. Well we'll see. Having the money to invest in other positions won't mean much if they replace Carr with the next Wilson or Darnold or Mayfield or Haskins or Rosen.
But Carr was pretty bad last year, so they probably think he fell below the keep/replace threshold. It's funny, a lot of the criticisms about Carr last year were the same criticisms from his draft profile.
Yes but it's the fact that they knew they weren't going anywhere with Carr, who is a good, not great QB and decided they'd rather take that swing at finding a franchise signal caller capable of taking them to the Super Bowl then paying their "good, not great" guy top dollar at the expense of other positions. So yes, while they have to get the QB position right, I admire the fact that they would rather take that risk then continue to pay a guy who probably ranks as the 10th to 15th best player at his position, top dollar. We let Cousins and his agent continue to bend us over a barrel because we have an ownership group that won't commit to an overdue rebuild and we have no other options at finding a franchise QB without mortgaging the future or getting extremely lucky in the draft.
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