Quote: @VikingOracle said:
Frankly, I think it is really hard to judge the late round draft picks. -- whether it is lack of talent or lack of coaching development. I am interested in seeing what a new coaching staff does with the raw talent hanging around the fringes of the roster.
Well I can say with confidence that it isn't a lack of coaching development. Don't let any bitterness towards Zimmer the HC make you think he lost his ability to coach DBs. Same goes for Andre Patterson with the DL. They are two of the best in the business. If these late round picks have talent and are willing students, Zim and Dre will unlock their potential.
I think the larger issue is that Spielman mostly accumulates Day 3 picks for special teams and looking for raw talent. Sometimes it works in the mold of Weatherly, Stephen, Kearse, Harris, etc. but other times it doesn't.
Spielman has had too many drafts without much immediate impact or staying power. We've had a lack of quality depth for awhile now.
No bitterness toward Zimmer, but tell me one DB he truly coached up. Here is the list of CB drafted while Zimmer was coach:
- Ant Exum
- Kendall James
- Jabari Price
- Trae Waynes
- Mac Alexander
- Jayron Kearse
- Jack Tocho
- Mike Hughes
- Marcus Epps
- Kris Boyd
- Jeff Gladney
- Cameron Danzler
- Harrison Hand
- Josh Metellus
- Brian Cole
- Camryn Bynum.
16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer. Who did he draft that exceeded his draft position (or even met expectation for draft position)?
Now let's look at his one "success" and the end of his career with the Vikings. In 2019, Rhodes had a PFF score of 46.4 (125th-best in the NFL) and allowed a 123.8 passer-rating-against. He was scheduled to make $12.9 million against the salary cap in 2020. So, under the DB whisper, Rhodes' play greatly regressed. The next year, with Colts and out from under Zimmer? His PFF grade rocketed to the top of the league at 78.4 – sixth-best for corners. With the Colts, his passer-rating-against plummeted to 78.1. So, just using Rhodes, Zimmer ultimately failed.
Now, let's look at the other first round draft picks, Waynes and Hughes. Waynes was picked no. 11 overall. Sorry, but I personally expected better than a decent starter when picked #11 and I expect them to last past their rookie contract. Hughes found his way into Zimmer's doghouse and was recently defensive player of the week for the Chiefs. I don't think Mac, a 2nd round draft pick, has lived up to his draft position either. Frankly, when you select a player in the first round, barring injury, you expect him to have a 10 year career with the franchise, not just play out his rookie contract.
Frankly, look at Marcus Epps, not a full time starter for the Eagles, but he has made 8 starts over the past 2 years. This is from an Eagles blog: "Still, when you give this guy a shot, he makes the most of it. He has 62 total tackles, five pass breakups, and an interception on the season, and he’s signed through next season. Philadelphia has something special here." As I recall, the Vikings cut Epps to make room for Sendejo's return. So really, the late round Viking DB that has developed into a solid player developed with the Eagles.
I can give some credit for Kearse but he, like all the other CBs drafted while Zimmer was coach, never made it past his rookie contract. You would really like to see the Vikings retain a developed CB past their rookie (cheap) contract.
So, please tell me how Zimmer has developed cornerbacks for the Vikings. Keep in mind, Zimmer choose to run Breeland out every week rather than Dantzler.
So, yes, this is one reason why I don't trust Zimmer developing players or even properly assessing talent on the roster. How many players only got a chance to sign because a starter became injured?
Quote: @VikingOracle said:
No bitterness toward Zimmer, but tell me one DB he truly coached up. Here is the list of CB drafted while Zimmer was coach:
- Ant Exum
- Kendall James
- Jabari Price
- Trae Waynes
- Mac Alexander
- Jayron Kearse
- Jack Tocho
- Mike Hughes
- Marcus Epps
- Kris Boyd
- Jeff Gladney
- Cameron Danzler
- Harrison Hand
- Josh Metellus
- Brian Cole
- Camryn Bynum.
16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer. Who did he draft that exceeded his draft position (or even met expectation for draft position)?
Now let's look at his one "success" and the end of his career with the Vikings. In 2019, Rhodes had a PFF score of 46.4 (125th-best in the NFL) and allowed a 123.8 passer-rating-against. He was scheduled to make $12.9 million against the salary cap in 2020. So, under the DB whisper, Rhodes' play greatly regressed. The next year, with Colts and out from under Zimmer? His PFF grade rocketed to the top of the league at 78.4 – sixth-best for corners. With the Colts, his passer-rating-against plummeted to 78.1. So, just using Rhodes, Zimmer ultimately failed.
Now, let's look at the other first round draft picks, Waynes and Hughes. Waynes was picked no. 11 overall. Sorry, but I personally expected better than a decent starter when picked #11 and I expect them to last past their rookie contract. Hughes found his way into Zimmer's doghouse and was recently defensive player of the week for the Chiefs. I don't think Mac, a 2nd round draft pick, has lived up to his draft position either. Frankly, when you select a player in the first round, barring injury, you expect him to have a 10 year career with the franchise, not just play out his rookie contract.
Frankly, look at Marcus Epps, not a full time starter for the Eagles, but he has made 8 starts over the past 2 years. This is from an Eagles blog: "Still, when you give this guy a shot, he makes the most of it. He has 62 total tackles, five pass breakups, and an interception on the season, and he’s signed through next season. Philadelphia has something special here." As I recall, the Vikings cut Epps to make room for Sendejo's return. So really, the late round Viking DB that has developed into a solid player developed with the Eagles.
I can give some credit for Kearse but he, like all the other CBs drafted while Zimmer was coach, never made it past his rookie contract. You would really like to see the Vikings retain a developed CB past their rookie (cheap) contract.
So, please tell me how Zimmer has developed cornerbacks for the Vikings. Keep in mind, Zimmer choose to run Breeland out every week rather than Dantzler.
So, yes, this is one reason why I don't trust Zimmer developing players or even properly assessing talent on the roster. How many players only got a chance to sign because a starter became injured?
The majority of those CBs are late Day 3 picks and a couple were recent enough draft picks that you can't say anything definitive about them. If you're gonna hold those against him, I got nothing. Kearse, Waynes, Harris (undrafted), and Alexander all had their best years here. I guess I'll defer to players like Deion, Newman, etc on Zimmer's coaching ability... when those guys are giving Zimmer credit for helping them be the best version of themselves, I'll believe that over what us rubes debate here.
Also, it's not Zimmer who decides the final 53. It's a collaborative effort so let's not keep assigning blame where it shouldn't be. You think Zim wanted to let half his starting defense go (which included three DBs in their prime that he developed and knew his scheme)?
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
Yeah, I figured it was related to weight, work ethic, something like that. But here's what concerns me. He had 4 months to fix his issue, get in shape, whatever he had to do, but clearly didn't. If he had, he'd be starting.
And now he's about to get 7 months off with more money in his bank account than he'll know what to do with. So....we'll see how he handles that.
I believe there were rumblings of being out of shape in training camp. And once he got behind, didn't get many reps, why would they trust him to suddenly know the playbook and be in shape?
Hopefully he realizes that gravy train doesn't last for the lazy and figures it out.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ VikingOracle said:
No bitterness toward Zimmer, but tell me one DB he truly coached up. Here is the list of CB drafted while Zimmer was coach:
- Ant Exum
- Kendall James
- Jabari Price
- Trae Waynes
- Mac Alexander
- Jayron Kearse
- Jack Tocho
- Mike Hughes
- Marcus Epps
- Kris Boyd
- Jeff Gladney
- Cameron Danzler
- Harrison Hand
- Josh Metellus
- Brian Cole
- Camryn Bynum.
16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer. Who did he draft that exceeded his draft position (or even met expectation for draft position)?
Now let's look at his one "success" and the end of his career with the Vikings. In 2019, Rhodes had a PFF score of 46.4 (125th-best in the NFL) and allowed a 123.8 passer-rating-against. He was scheduled to make $12.9 million against the salary cap in 2020. So, under the DB whisper, Rhodes' play greatly regressed. The next year, with Colts and out from under Zimmer? His PFF grade rocketed to the top of the league at 78.4 – sixth-best for corners. With the Colts, his passer-rating-against plummeted to 78.1. So, just using Rhodes, Zimmer ultimately failed.
Now, let's look at the other first round draft picks, Waynes and Hughes. Waynes was picked no. 11 overall. Sorry, but I personally expected better than a decent starter when picked #11 and I expect them to last past their rookie contract. Hughes found his way into Zimmer's doghouse and was recently defensive player of the week for the Chiefs. I don't think Mac, a 2nd round draft pick, has lived up to his draft position either. Frankly, when you select a player in the first round, barring injury, you expect him to have a 10 year career with the franchise, not just play out his rookie contract.
Frankly, look at Marcus Epps, not a full time starter for the Eagles, but he has made 8 starts over the past 2 years. This is from an Eagles blog: "Still, when you give this guy a shot, he makes the most of it. He has 62 total tackles, five pass breakups, and an interception on the season, and he’s signed through next season. Philadelphia has something special here." As I recall, the Vikings cut Epps to make room for Sendejo's return. So really, the late round Viking DB that has developed into a solid player developed with the Eagles.
I can give some credit for Kearse but he, like all the other CBs drafted while Zimmer was coach, never made it past his rookie contract. You would really like to see the Vikings retain a developed CB past their rookie (cheap) contract.
So, please tell me how Zimmer has developed cornerbacks for the Vikings. Keep in mind, Zimmer choose to run Breeland out every week rather than Dantzler.
So, yes, this is one reason why I don't trust Zimmer developing players or even properly assessing talent on the roster. How many players only got a chance to sign because a starter became injured?
The majority of those CBs are late Day 3 picks and a couple were recent enough draft picks that you can't say anything definitive about them. If you're gonna hold those against him, I got nothing. Kearse, Waynes, Harris (undrafted), and Alexander all had their best years here. I guess I'll defer to players like Deion, Newman, etc on Zimmer's coaching ability... when those guys are giving Zimmer credit for helping them be the best version of themselves, I'll believe that over what us rubes debate here.
Also, it's not Zimmer who decides the final 53. It's a collaborative effort so let's not keep assigning blame where it shouldn't be. You think Zim wanted to let half his starting defense go (which included three DBs in their prime that he developed and knew his scheme)?
Rhodes had his best years under Zimmer, but I guess we should ignore the Rhodes closed years. He is reportedly a unique individual, Planet Xe?, and so his last year here was likely more about Rhodes than Zimmer.
Waynes played well and got a huge contract elsewhere. NOBODY here wanted to sign him for that $ amount, but obviously the talent people in the NFL thought more of him than the internet critics. Mac as well, he played well his last couple of years under Zim and got a big contract. He flopped there, so perhaps Zim was more important to him than anyone recognized.
kearse and Hughes start for other teams in the NFL. Not bad for a 7th round pick. He was a bit of a drama queen and thought he was better than he was, but at least he has the talent to start in the NFL. Hughes was a good pick, but injuries are the issue. He has the talent, but who here wanted to keep him? Anyone? Bueller?
Gladney showed promise, but turned out to be "that guy" and ended his own career.
Give Zim some credit where it is due. The lack of talent in the DB room this year and last have really hampered his D. But big contracts for making players successful isn't something to fault a coach for.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ VikingOracle said:
No bitterness toward Zimmer, but tell me one DB he truly coached up. Here is the list of CB drafted while Zimmer was coach:
- Ant Exum
- Kendall James
- Jabari Price
- Trae Waynes
- Mac Alexander
- Jayron Kearse
- Jack Tocho
- Mike Hughes
- Marcus Epps
- Kris Boyd
- Jeff Gladney
- Cameron Danzler
- Harrison Hand
- Josh Metellus
- Brian Cole
- Camryn Bynum.
16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer. Who did he draft that exceeded his draft position (or even met expectation for draft position)?
Now let's look at his one "success" and the end of his career with the Vikings. In 2019, Rhodes had a PFF score of 46.4 (125th-best in the NFL) and allowed a 123.8 passer-rating-against. He was scheduled to make $12.9 million against the salary cap in 2020. So, under the DB whisper, Rhodes' play greatly regressed. The next year, with Colts and out from under Zimmer? His PFF grade rocketed to the top of the league at 78.4 – sixth-best for corners. With the Colts, his passer-rating-against plummeted to 78.1. So, just using Rhodes, Zimmer ultimately failed.
Now, let's look at the other first round draft picks, Waynes and Hughes. Waynes was picked no. 11 overall. Sorry, but I personally expected better than a decent starter when picked #11 and I expect them to last past their rookie contract. Hughes found his way into Zimmer's doghouse and was recently defensive player of the week for the Chiefs. I don't think Mac, a 2nd round draft pick, has lived up to his draft position either. Frankly, when you select a player in the first round, barring injury, you expect him to have a 10 year career with the franchise, not just play out his rookie contract.
Frankly, look at Marcus Epps, not a full time starter for the Eagles, but he has made 8 starts over the past 2 years. This is from an Eagles blog: "Still, when you give this guy a shot, he makes the most of it. He has 62 total tackles, five pass breakups, and an interception on the season, and he’s signed through next season. Philadelphia has something special here." As I recall, the Vikings cut Epps to make room for Sendejo's return. So really, the late round Viking DB that has developed into a solid player developed with the Eagles.
I can give some credit for Kearse but he, like all the other CBs drafted while Zimmer was coach, never made it past his rookie contract. You would really like to see the Vikings retain a developed CB past their rookie (cheap) contract.
So, please tell me how Zimmer has developed cornerbacks for the Vikings. Keep in mind, Zimmer choose to run Breeland out every week rather than Dantzler.
So, yes, this is one reason why I don't trust Zimmer developing players or even properly assessing talent on the roster. How many players only got a chance to sign because a starter became injured?
The majority of those CBs are late Day 3 picks and a couple were recent enough draft picks that you can't say anything definitive about them. If you're gonna hold those against him, I got nothing. Kearse, Waynes, Harris (undrafted), and Alexander all had their best years here. I guess I'll defer to players like Deion, Newman, etc on Zimmer's coaching ability... when those guys are giving Zimmer credit for helping them be the best version of themselves, I'll believe that over what us rubes debate here.
Also, it's not Zimmer who decides the final 53. It's a collaborative effort so let's not keep assigning blame where it shouldn't be. You think Zim wanted to let half his starting defense go (which included three DBs in their prime that he developed and knew his scheme)?
Just so I understand, you judge Zimmer's ability to develop CB talent on Terrence Newman (drafted fifth overall) and Deion Sanders (also drafted fifth overall) giving Zimmer credit for developing them as proof that he is still good at developing CBs though not a single Viking CB draft pick survived past his rookie contract. I do think Zimmer deserves credit for developing Harris but you just can't devote that much draft capital to the DB position and not develop a single long term starter.
BTW, as for Alexander, keep in mind that this year is his worst year according to PFF. Yes, Waynes best years happened with the Vikings (only because he has been injured since leaving) but did he ever play worthy of being the 11th overall draft pick?
Now, you mention Andre Patterson's ability to develop talent and I agree with you. Let's compare him to Zimmer. Here are the players drafted at DL since 2015:
- Danielle Hunter (3rd round; still playing)
- BJ Dubose (6th round)
- Jaleel Johnson (4th round, still playing)
- Ifeadi Odenigbo (7th round, still playing)
- Jalyn Holmes (4th round, still playing)
- Ade Aruna (6th round)
- Armon Watts (6th round, still playing)
- DJ Wonnum (4th round, still playing)
- James Lynch (4th round, still playing)
- Kenny Willekes (7th round, still playing)
- Patrick Jones (3rd round)
- Janarius Robinson (4th round)
- Jaylen Twyman (6th round).
So, since 2015, the Vikings have not drafted a DL higher than the 3rd round; have drafted a total of 13 dl in that time and all but 2 are still in the NFL. I will agree with you, that looks like a coach good at developing talent as most have outplayed their draft position.
So, no, I would not lump Zimmer and Patterson together as coaches able to develop players. You also see Patterson giving back-ups/young players reps (not caused by injuries).
Quote: @VikingOracle said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ VikingOracle said:
No bitterness toward Zimmer, but tell me one DB he truly coached up. Here is the list of CB drafted while Zimmer was coach:
- Ant Exum
- Kendall James
- Jabari Price
- Trae Waynes
- Mac Alexander
- Jayron Kearse
- Jack Tocho
- Mike Hughes
- Marcus Epps
- Kris Boyd
- Jeff Gladney
- Cameron Danzler
- Harrison Hand
- Josh Metellus
- Brian Cole
- Camryn Bynum.
16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer. Who did he draft that exceeded his draft position (or even met expectation for draft position)?
Now let's look at his one "success" and the end of his career with the Vikings. In 2019, Rhodes had a PFF score of 46.4 (125th-best in the NFL) and allowed a 123.8 passer-rating-against. He was scheduled to make $12.9 million against the salary cap in 2020. So, under the DB whisper, Rhodes' play greatly regressed. The next year, with Colts and out from under Zimmer? His PFF grade rocketed to the top of the league at 78.4 – sixth-best for corners. With the Colts, his passer-rating-against plummeted to 78.1. So, just using Rhodes, Zimmer ultimately failed.
Now, let's look at the other first round draft picks, Waynes and Hughes. Waynes was picked no. 11 overall. Sorry, but I personally expected better than a decent starter when picked #11 and I expect them to last past their rookie contract. Hughes found his way into Zimmer's doghouse and was recently defensive player of the week for the Chiefs. I don't think Mac, a 2nd round draft pick, has lived up to his draft position either. Frankly, when you select a player in the first round, barring injury, you expect him to have a 10 year career with the franchise, not just play out his rookie contract.
Frankly, look at Marcus Epps, not a full time starter for the Eagles, but he has made 8 starts over the past 2 years. This is from an Eagles blog: "Still, when you give this guy a shot, he makes the most of it. He has 62 total tackles, five pass breakups, and an interception on the season, and he’s signed through next season. Philadelphia has something special here." As I recall, the Vikings cut Epps to make room for Sendejo's return. So really, the late round Viking DB that has developed into a solid player developed with the Eagles.
I can give some credit for Kearse but he, like all the other CBs drafted while Zimmer was coach, never made it past his rookie contract. You would really like to see the Vikings retain a developed CB past their rookie (cheap) contract.
So, please tell me how Zimmer has developed cornerbacks for the Vikings. Keep in mind, Zimmer choose to run Breeland out every week rather than Dantzler.
So, yes, this is one reason why I don't trust Zimmer developing players or even properly assessing talent on the roster. How many players only got a chance to sign because a starter became injured?
The majority of those CBs are late Day 3 picks and a couple were recent enough draft picks that you can't say anything definitive about them. If you're gonna hold those against him, I got nothing. Kearse, Waynes, Harris (undrafted), and Alexander all had their best years here. I guess I'll defer to players like Deion, Newman, etc on Zimmer's coaching ability... when those guys are giving Zimmer credit for helping them be the best version of themselves, I'll believe that over what us rubes debate here.
Also, it's not Zimmer who decides the final 53. It's a collaborative effort so let's not keep assigning blame where it shouldn't be. You think Zim wanted to let half his starting defense go (which included three DBs in their prime that he developed and knew his scheme)?
Just so I understand, you judge Zimmer's ability to develop CB talent on Terrence Newman (drafted fifth overall) and Deion Sanders (also drafted fifth overall) giving Zimmer credit for developing them as proof that he is still good at developing CBs though not a single Viking CB draft pick survived past his rookie contract. I do think Zimmer deserves credit for developing Harris but you just can't devote that much draft capital to the DB position and not develop a single long term starter.
BTW, as for Alexander, keep in mind that this year is his worst year according to PFF. Yes, Waynes best years happened with the Vikings (only because he has been injured since leaving) but did he ever play worthy of being the 11th overall draft pick?
Yeah and Deion was the best cornerback in football and the reigning defensive player of the year before joining Zimmer in Dallas....so there's that.
To me Zimmer's ability as a DB coaching guru has never come to fruition in Minnesota. There's just no proof in the pudding and that list Oracle provided proves that. To me this is the most damning statistic in Zimmer's coaching ability. When after 8 years the position you are supposed to be an expert at coaching is still a problem...it's a problem
Quote: @VikingOracle said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ VikingOracle said:
No bitterness toward Zimmer, but tell me one DB he truly coached up. Here is the list of CB drafted while Zimmer was coach:
- Ant Exum
- Kendall James
- Jabari Price
- Trae Waynes
- Mac Alexander
- Jayron Kearse
- Jack Tocho
- Mike Hughes
- Marcus Epps
- Kris Boyd
- Jeff Gladney
- Cameron Danzler
- Harrison Hand
- Josh Metellus
- Brian Cole
- Camryn Bynum.
16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer. Who did he draft that exceeded his draft position (or even met expectation for draft position)?
Now let's look at his one "success" and the end of his career with the Vikings. In 2019, Rhodes had a PFF score of 46.4 (125th-best in the NFL) and allowed a 123.8 passer-rating-against. He was scheduled to make $12.9 million against the salary cap in 2020. So, under the DB whisper, Rhodes' play greatly regressed. The next year, with Colts and out from under Zimmer? His PFF grade rocketed to the top of the league at 78.4 – sixth-best for corners. With the Colts, his passer-rating-against plummeted to 78.1. So, just using Rhodes, Zimmer ultimately failed.
Now, let's look at the other first round draft picks, Waynes and Hughes. Waynes was picked no. 11 overall. Sorry, but I personally expected better than a decent starter when picked #11 and I expect them to last past their rookie contract. Hughes found his way into Zimmer's doghouse and was recently defensive player of the week for the Chiefs. I don't think Mac, a 2nd round draft pick, has lived up to his draft position either. Frankly, when you select a player in the first round, barring injury, you expect him to have a 10 year career with the franchise, not just play out his rookie contract.
Frankly, look at Marcus Epps, not a full time starter for the Eagles, but he has made 8 starts over the past 2 years. This is from an Eagles blog: "Still, when you give this guy a shot, he makes the most of it. He has 62 total tackles, five pass breakups, and an interception on the season, and he’s signed through next season. Philadelphia has something special here." As I recall, the Vikings cut Epps to make room for Sendejo's return. So really, the late round Viking DB that has developed into a solid player developed with the Eagles.
I can give some credit for Kearse but he, like all the other CBs drafted while Zimmer was coach, never made it past his rookie contract. You would really like to see the Vikings retain a developed CB past their rookie (cheap) contract.
So, please tell me how Zimmer has developed cornerbacks for the Vikings. Keep in mind, Zimmer choose to run Breeland out every week rather than Dantzler.
So, yes, this is one reason why I don't trust Zimmer developing players or even properly assessing talent on the roster. How many players only got a chance to sign because a starter became injured?
The majority of those CBs are late Day 3 picks and a couple were recent enough draft picks that you can't say anything definitive about them. If you're gonna hold those against him, I got nothing. Kearse, Waynes, Harris (undrafted), and Alexander all had their best years here. I guess I'll defer to players like Deion, Newman, etc on Zimmer's coaching ability... when those guys are giving Zimmer credit for helping them be the best version of themselves, I'll believe that over what us rubes debate here.
Also, it's not Zimmer who decides the final 53. It's a collaborative effort so let's not keep assigning blame where it shouldn't be. You think Zim wanted to let half his starting defense go (which included three DBs in their prime that he developed and knew his scheme)?
Just so I understand, you judge Zimmer's ability to develop CB talent on Terrence Newman (drafted fifth overall) and Deion Sanders (also drafted fifth overall) giving Zimmer credit for developing them as proof that he is still good at developing CBs though not a single Viking CB draft pick survived past his rookie contract. I do think Zimmer deserves credit for developing Harris but you just can't devote that much draft capital to the DB position and not develop a single long term starter.
BTW, as for Alexander, keep in mind that this year is his worst year according to PFF. Yes, Waynes best years happened with the Vikings (only because he has been injured since leaving) but did he ever play worthy of being the 11th overall draft pick?
I go by what good players say. If they think Zimmer is the best coach they've had, that tells me something. Pointing to a bunch of late round picks that didn't develop doesn't mean as much. If you have a problem with Waynes, maybe you should be pointing the finger at Spielman? He drafted him? Was his talent worthy of being #11? Did Zimmer turn him into a good CB worthy of a big contract? Yes, he did. Who's decision was it to not give him a second contract here? Again... it ain't Zimmer's decision. I'm sure he wanted him back, but others that are involved in making roster decisions decided to spend that money elsewhere. I usually agree with a lot of your takes, VO... but I think your assuming Zimmer has final say on the roster, where we spend our money in FA, and who we pick in the draft. He has input, but he's not the GM.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ VikingOracle said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ VikingOracle said:
No bitterness toward Zimmer, but tell me one DB he truly coached up. Here is the list of CB drafted while Zimmer was coach:
- Ant Exum
- Kendall James
- Jabari Price
- Trae Waynes
- Mac Alexander
- Jayron Kearse
- Jack Tocho
- Mike Hughes
- Marcus Epps
- Kris Boyd
- Jeff Gladney
- Cameron Danzler
- Harrison Hand
- Josh Metellus
- Brian Cole
- Camryn Bynum.
16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer. Who did he draft that exceeded his draft position (or even met expectation for draft position)?
Now let's look at his one "success" and the end of his career with the Vikings. In 2019, Rhodes had a PFF score of 46.4 (125th-best in the NFL) and allowed a 123.8 passer-rating-against. He was scheduled to make $12.9 million against the salary cap in 2020. So, under the DB whisper, Rhodes' play greatly regressed. The next year, with Colts and out from under Zimmer? His PFF grade rocketed to the top of the league at 78.4 – sixth-best for corners. With the Colts, his passer-rating-against plummeted to 78.1. So, just using Rhodes, Zimmer ultimately failed.
Now, let's look at the other first round draft picks, Waynes and Hughes. Waynes was picked no. 11 overall. Sorry, but I personally expected better than a decent starter when picked #11 and I expect them to last past their rookie contract. Hughes found his way into Zimmer's doghouse and was recently defensive player of the week for the Chiefs. I don't think Mac, a 2nd round draft pick, has lived up to his draft position either. Frankly, when you select a player in the first round, barring injury, you expect him to have a 10 year career with the franchise, not just play out his rookie contract.
Frankly, look at Marcus Epps, not a full time starter for the Eagles, but he has made 8 starts over the past 2 years. This is from an Eagles blog: "Still, when you give this guy a shot, he makes the most of it. He has 62 total tackles, five pass breakups, and an interception on the season, and he’s signed through next season. Philadelphia has something special here." As I recall, the Vikings cut Epps to make room for Sendejo's return. So really, the late round Viking DB that has developed into a solid player developed with the Eagles.
I can give some credit for Kearse but he, like all the other CBs drafted while Zimmer was coach, never made it past his rookie contract. You would really like to see the Vikings retain a developed CB past their rookie (cheap) contract.
So, please tell me how Zimmer has developed cornerbacks for the Vikings. Keep in mind, Zimmer choose to run Breeland out every week rather than Dantzler.
So, yes, this is one reason why I don't trust Zimmer developing players or even properly assessing talent on the roster. How many players only got a chance to sign because a starter became injured?
The majority of those CBs are late Day 3 picks and a couple were recent enough draft picks that you can't say anything definitive about them. If you're gonna hold those against him, I got nothing. Kearse, Waynes, Harris (undrafted), and Alexander all had their best years here. I guess I'll defer to players like Deion, Newman, etc on Zimmer's coaching ability... when those guys are giving Zimmer credit for helping them be the best version of themselves, I'll believe that over what us rubes debate here.
Also, it's not Zimmer who decides the final 53. It's a collaborative effort so let's not keep assigning blame where it shouldn't be. You think Zim wanted to let half his starting defense go (which included three DBs in their prime that he developed and knew his scheme)?
Just so I understand, you judge Zimmer's ability to develop CB talent on Terrence Newman (drafted fifth overall) and Deion Sanders (also drafted fifth overall) giving Zimmer credit for developing them as proof that he is still good at developing CBs though not a single Viking CB draft pick survived past his rookie contract. I do think Zimmer deserves credit for developing Harris but you just can't devote that much draft capital to the DB position and not develop a single long term starter.
BTW, as for Alexander, keep in mind that this year is his worst year according to PFF. Yes, Waynes best years happened with the Vikings (only because he has been injured since leaving) but did he ever play worthy of being the 11th overall draft pick?
I go by what good players say. If they think Zimmer is the best coach they've had, that tells me something. Pointing to a bunch of late round picks that didn't develop doesn't mean as much. If you have a problem with Waynes, maybe you should be pointing the finger at Spielman? He drafted him? Was his talent worthy of being #11? Did Zimmer turn him into a good CB worthy of a big contract? Yes, he did. Who's decision was it to not give him a second contract here? Again... it ain't Zimmer's decision. I'm sure he wanted him back, but others that are involved in making roster decisions decided to spend that money elsewhere. I usually agree with a lot of your takes, VO... but I think your assuming Zimmer has final say on the roster, where we spend our money in FA, and who we pick in the draft. He has input, but he's not the GM.
Deion Sanders 2018 interview:
Quote:Who was the best coach you ever had?
Sanders: That's a good one. Bobby Bowden was an unbelievable man - unbelievable man on and off the field. My defensive backs coach, Mickey Andrews. I had so many good coaches, head coaches. That's a tough one. That's really a tough one. I loved Barry Switzer, man. Switzer's my dog; not just my homie. Switzer was a good guy. You ask him right now about a guy that played for him in the 80s or 90s, he remembers that guy and their family. Good guy, great guy. https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/cowboy...y-switzer/
So I guess Zimmer is somewhere behind Barry Switzer, Mickey Andrews and Bobby Bowden in Deion Sander's assessment of coaches.
As for the drafting of Trae Waynes, do you think Zimmer did not approve of him? Zimmer did go to his pro day with Spielman. https://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/...te-pro-day. I am guessing if the CB whisper did not think Waynes was worth the 11th overall pick, he might just express that opinion. But that is JMHO.
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