Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ mblack said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ mblack said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ Knucklehead said:
Is he a better prospect than Mond?
Much better. But he's raw and inconsistent. Former Clemson or Auburn recruit with dynamic playmaking abilities. Electric.
So we passed on getting a near sure thing at QB this past draft and get Mond. When some of us disagreed with that move we were told:
- Mond was high on our board (as they say)
- We value draft picks (reason we did not trade up for Fields)
- A QB will not help as long as we have Cousins. That a rookie will not beat him. (Reasons we did not take Jones when we had a chance )
- We have bigger holes to fill. A qb without an Oline is not wirth it. Our oline still sucks and we still need to draft OL help.
- We are in win now mode or close to play off and a rookie QB does not help (we are barely hanging onto the last playoff spot with a 7-7 record)
- Mond can sit back and develop without pressure. Are we giving up already? Yet the qbs we could have had are both playing and doing well)
And now we are talking about drafting another QB because he is better than Mond?
What happened to all the reasons above?
Who was the sure thing?
Near sure thing…Mac Jones.
No sure thing. Limited long-term upside, but Jones was definitely the QB who was most likely to play well early. He's been exactly who everyone thought he'd be. But let's not pretend this is Dan Marino.
18 TDs, 10 INTs. For comparison Kirk Cousins has 29 TDs and 6 INTs right now. Jones season is roughly equal to Marcus Mariota's rookie year. RGIII and Jameis Winston had better rookie seasons.
We'll see what Jones develops into, but knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd change anything about our draft. Jones would not have played a snap in Minnesota and Darrisaw looks like a 10-year LT.
No one (at least not me) said he was Marino. Like you said, he was most likely to play early. No he has not been exactly what everyone thought he would be. Many here said he would not be a good qb let alone decent one in the NFL. So he has already proven those wrong in his early days. Here is where I have a problem with your observation:
- You agree he was most likely to play well early. How do you know how he would be in 5-10 years? You don't
- When people say Jones is playing well today. You say we should wait 3-5 years. That is lunacy because of 1 above. You have no idea how he would play in 3-5 years. All we have is today. So if he is playing well today then say so (I know you have) but more of me generalizing. That does not mean he is HOF ready nor Dan Marino.
- If we can draft a player that will play well for one or two years and we win a super bowl I will be all in. So please lets stop with the upside in 3 or 4 years. That is not a scientific analysis.
- I have never projected Jones to be Marino or a HOF. People like you do when we mention he is playing well today. Need proof? Read the top of this post.
- Regarding your point on Darrisaw, I agree. Again my point was to take Jones and trade up for Darrisaw or the next best LT. We supposedly did not rate the best LT Slater.
- How do you know Darrisaw will be good for 10 years? Let me guess... he looks like it. I remember a certain Matt Kalil being the tackle for the future. How did that pan out? So lets not use the argument subjectively to fit our narratives. I don't know what tomorrow brings. I can only speak of today and recent past.
Lastly, I never said Jones was a sure thing. I said near sure thing because it is all a crap shoot. We are all judged over time. So for now we go with what we have. So, as of today I am correct because he is playing well. In three years I may be wrong just like in three years he may have helped the Patroits win a super bowl. We don't just know.
Also, I never said he should take over from Cousins. He should have been our back up and take over next year so we are not held hostage by Cousins and the ballooning QB contracts. I would think that would be smart and planning for the future.
We would have had him sit a year so he is not rushed and learn from Cousins and take over when Cousin's contract ran out. Many here were of the opinion that you don't let a first round pick sit and that we were close (see points above). So the draft in my opinion should have been: Mac Jones, Darrisaw via trade (or next best LT), etc...
So comparing him with Cousin's is pointless. It actually does not help you. You are comparing a rookie that makes 4 million with a 10+ year vet that is supposed to take the team over the hump on a 100 million salary.
Bottom line is that it's far too early to say anything about any of the draft picks. If you look back at comments made at the time, you'll see that I thought Jones was being unfairly criticized for having a good supporting cast at Alabama. I thought he was being underrated by most draft observers. That doesn't mean I think the Vikings should've taken him. Knowing what we know now, I think we made the right decision, but we won't know that for certain for a few more seasons.
As far as what we should do in the upcoming draft, we'll see. But drafting Mond in the 3rd in 2021 should not mean we should take QB off our first round wish list in 2022.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
Bottom line is that it's far too early to say anything about any of the draft picks. If you look back at comments made at the time, you'll see that I thought Jones was being unfairly criticized for having a good supporting cast at Alabama. I thought he was being underrated by most draft observers. That doesn't mean I think the Vikings should've taken him. Knowing what we know now, I think we made the right decision, but we won't know that for certain for a few more seasons.
As far as what we should do in the upcoming draft, we'll see. But drafting Mond in the 3rd in 2021 should not mean we should take QB off our first round wish list in 2022.
QBs should be off the first round wish list because they aren't first round caliber. But, there will be a small handful taken about 30 picks too high.
2023, now you're talking.
Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Bottom line is that it's far too early to say anything about any of the draft picks. If you look back at comments made at the time, you'll see that I thought Jones was being unfairly criticized for having a good supporting cast at Alabama. I thought he was being underrated by most draft observers. That doesn't mean I think the Vikings should've taken him. Knowing what we know now, I think we made the right decision, but we won't know that for certain for a few more seasons.
As far as what we should do in the upcoming draft, we'll see. But drafting Mond in the 3rd in 2021 should not mean we should take QB off our first round wish list in 2022.
QBs should be off the first round wish list because they aren't first round caliber. But, there will be a small handful taken about 30 picks too high.
2023, now you're talking. Cousins and Jefferson for Wilson, who says no
Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Bottom line is that it's far too early to say anything about any of the draft picks. If you look back at comments made at the time, you'll see that I thought Jones was being unfairly criticized for having a good supporting cast at Alabama. I thought he was being underrated by most draft observers. That doesn't mean I think the Vikings should've taken him. Knowing what we know now, I think we made the right decision, but we won't know that for certain for a few more seasons.
As far as what we should do in the upcoming draft, we'll see. But drafting Mond in the 3rd in 2021 should not mean we should take QB off our first round wish list in 2022.
QBs should be off the first round wish list because they aren't first round caliber. But, there will be a small handful taken about 30 picks too high.
2023, now you're talking.
But we had that opportunity last year with first round calibre QBs. Seems like we are going in circles ;-)
Quote: @mblack said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Bottom line is that it's far too early to say anything about any of the draft picks. If you look back at comments made at the time, you'll see that I thought Jones was being unfairly criticized for having a good supporting cast at Alabama. I thought he was being underrated by most draft observers. That doesn't mean I think the Vikings should've taken him. Knowing what we know now, I think we made the right decision, but we won't know that for certain for a few more seasons.
As far as what we should do in the upcoming draft, we'll see. But drafting Mond in the 3rd in 2021 should not mean we should take QB off our first round wish list in 2022.
QBs should be off the first round wish list because they aren't first round caliber. But, there will be a small handful taken about 30 picks too high.
2023, now you're talking.
But we had that opportunity last year with first round calibre QBs. Seems like we are going in circles ;-)
Do we like Jones and Hill/Udoh better than Cousins and Darrisaw?
I'm pretty sure I'd go with the latter.
Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
@ mblack said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Bottom line is that it's far too early to say anything about any of the draft picks. If you look back at comments made at the time, you'll see that I thought Jones was being unfairly criticized for having a good supporting cast at Alabama. I thought he was being underrated by most draft observers. That doesn't mean I think the Vikings should've taken him. Knowing what we know now, I think we made the right decision, but we won't know that for certain for a few more seasons.
As far as what we should do in the upcoming draft, we'll see. But drafting Mond in the 3rd in 2021 should not mean we should take QB off our first round wish list in 2022.
QBs should be off the first round wish list because they aren't first round caliber. But, there will be a small handful taken about 30 picks too high.
2023, now you're talking.
But we had that opportunity last year with first round calibre QBs. Seems like we are going in circles ;-)
Do we like Jones and Hill/Udoh better than Cousins and Darrisaw?
I'm pretty sure I'd go with the latter.
I am not sure how else to explain this….
I never had a situation where Cousins was not playing this year. So using your analogy this is how I would compare it:
- Cousins, Darrisaw, Manion, Mond vs
- Cousins, Hill/Udoh/Darrisaw (via Trade) or third best tackle (because we needed one), Mac Jones (he sure wouod have been back up thus instant help at the very least freeing up space we used for Manion and the cap impact). Mond has not dressed up even once.
I will sure take the second option. We would not be having this conversation if we went option 2 which is the reason I joined this thread. We whould have done what the Chiefs did with Mahomes (I am not saying Jones will be Mahomes). They drafted Mahomes when they had Alex Smith and Smith was playing well. He was drafted 10th overall and they still sat him for a year! We had Jones at pick 15!
One could say the Darrisaw pick did not add much because we were 7-9 last year without him plus major OL issues and no future QB in place.
With Darrisaw we are currently 7-7 and may end up a game or two better still with OL issues no plans for the future at QB (since we are now talking about another QB as if we are giving up on Mond). The biggest of all, we are still very much tied with Cousins for the future and the potential inpact that will have on the cap and roster construction.
We may agree to disagree on this one
Cousins and Darrisaw are not why we are 7-7. The sieve of a shitshow defense are. With an average D, we're 10-4.
Cousins is what, 33? He's got at least 3 more prime years and has been incredibly durable and productive. Jones has looked good so far, but so did Rick Meier.
What's the quicker path to the Super Bowl? Find a QB or fix the D? History has shown finding a QB is pretty hard. Draft is littered with busts.
Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
Cousins and Darrisaw are not why we are 7-7. The sieve of a shitshow defense are. With an average D, we're 10-4.
Agreed. So again we could have had the same (or similar result) if we had drafted a "QB for the future". I know the Vikings brass were thinking this because they drafted Mond. They should have drafted Jones instead knowing what we know today. This is hard to say because I actually like Darrisaw but if we are honest about long term success the pick should have been Jones. When you look at all the one year deals and free agents we will have coming up on a D that desperately needs help you wonder how we would work the cap to upgrade these areas. Why are we in a cap squeeze? You guessed it Cousins! Note: I am not complaining about his contract. It's a business and he is taking care of himself. The Vikings brass failed to take care of the Vikings with that pick
Cousins is what, 33? He's got at least 3 more prime years and has been incredibly durable and productive. Jones has looked good so far, but so did Rick Meier.
Yes Cousins has more to offer but again, we were never replacing him this year. We had the opportunity to draft a highly rated QB (whether he pans out 3-4 years from today is a different discussion) and have him learn behind Cousins with no pressure and if he developed as we would have liked, it would have been an easy transition. It also would have put us the driver seat when it comes to negotiating with Cousins. Right now we are in a tough spot in this regard and Cousins will not care about that because history has proven that he will not take a discount. If we are thinking of replacing Mond then we are admitting that was a wasted 2nd rounder. We could have used that pick (plus others maybe) to move up and get the next best tackle available and still be where we are today. This is what I have been saying since day one.
What's the quicker path to the Super Bowl? Find a QB or fix the D? History has shown finding a QB is pretty hard. Draft is littered with busts.
Yes it is hard (very hard to find a QB) reason we should have tried harder and taken the QB that was better (at least going into the draft). As of today Jones is better than Mond. We had a chance to get Jones and we whiffed. We have been fixing the defense for 7+ years just like the Oline and how has that worked? How many first round picks have been committed to those two areas? Maybe we try something different maybe like drafting a QB that could help us or better still change the decision makers.
So again, drafting Darrisaw is about net neutral when it comes to wins and losses (it does not mean he is not a good pick). We could have had the same results if we drafted Jones and had him sit a year. Like you rightfully said, our struggles have been on defense so in a weird way, we really should have swapped picks with the Broncos (we take Patrick Surtain and they take Jones). Both teams would have seen more improvement
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