I think that's a good post TBro.
I personally like Spielman's personality; i enjoy listening to him talk about the team and opening up about what we are doing.
I'm growing tired of his cap magic, the genius of our moves, creating blinders to obvious holes. The issue isn't a "Madden" issue, where i'm getting pissy that we won't load up the trade menu and order a solution, it's like TBro said, it's the neglect in a way. We stack these positions up before anything on the field happens, next year we add a token guy to the position to create a fallback, and 2 years later none of them are here anymore.
At worst, we keep trying and failing to address these obvious problems. Zimmer's defense right now has some major problems schematically. We have 1 linebacker on the roster who can hit people, maybe 2 if Gideon gets up to speed. GIDEON. Doesn't this piss anybody off? Sendejo still? Zimmer is going to have his hands full on "his" side of the ball by default.
Rarely do we entertain that players we get just might not be very good.
if someone ends up on the chopping block, however, i'd really suggest taking a deeper look at Spielman than Zim. I'd start by wondering how Zimmer could or would do being paired with another G.M who has a different philosophy on roster building. Then maybe flip it, "If Spielman had a different coach here could we build up an even better roster?"
How many times do we have to fail before we even wonder, "hey, maybe Rick is having a hard time getting on the same page as the coaching staffs we bring in." Or, "maybe Rick has a tenancy to pull coaches to his page." ... Jarius Wright buried on the depth chart? ... just cut the guy (referring to last season)?!
... haha, man, I wasn't aiming for an anti-Spielman tirade today; but hey, you started it PF! lol... Nah, i mean I enjoy Spielman - I think he's been incredible in a lot of aspects of his job and his time here. I love how he address' the media and connects with fans. But if there is a decision to be made, however, we gotta be very, very, critical of his own decisions shaping the roster overall. It's tiresome to enter seasons looking at the depth at certain positions like, "ooohhhh shit." We've even stopped trying to sell ourselves on how solid things are at those positions at this point; waiting to see what happens instead. I don't think that's a coaching thing.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ TBro said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I have a hard time blaming any of this on Spielman. The talent is there. The drafts have been good. And this notion from the article that Spielman foolishly entrusted his nickel corner spot to a 2nd year, 2nd round corner who is IDEALLY suited to play nickel is just ridiculous.
I know it won't be popular, but I put Zimmer on the hot seat before Spielman. I'm just not convinced he's the great coach many think he is.
MB, I put a lot of blame on Spielman for neglecting the offensive line for as long as he did. His failures in that area continue to haunt us. Before this draft, Beavers and Clemmings were the highest drafted OLinemen since Kalil. I don't blame him on Kalil. He had the pedigree but didn't have the desire IMO. Clemmings and Beavers were risky picks as 4th rounders and the amount of failed picks in between in the later rounds shows how flawed his strategy was thinking he could pick up starters in later rounds. Boone wasn't a fit for the system Shurmur runs and never lived up to the hype when we signed him. We will see what happens this year with Reiff and Remmers but he has nobody else to blame for having to spend all that money on questionable FA Tackles but himself with how he handled the draft for that critical area of the team.
It's hard for me to blame him for neglecting the OL since I sort of agree with the school of thought that says you don't need top draft choices on your OL. I've said it many times, but if I were in charge (and damn it, why aren't I? ), I'd never use a 1st rounder on an OL. HOWEVER, I'd use the 2nd and 3rd round as my OL rounds. Spielman's problem is that he used the 4th round and below, which reduces your chances of hitting significantly.
Sounds like he may have adjusted correctly this year, using a 3rd for Elflein. He may have gotten lucky in the 5th round with Isadora as well. My biggest complaint about Spielman (or maybe Zimmer) is that our OL scouts don't seem to be very good at finding down draft OL talent. And our OL coaches haven't been very good at developing them. If one is bad, then the other has to be very good, and that hasn't been the case.
I totally agree with you on Scouting and Coaching. If you are criticizing our Scouts for not finding late round OLine talent, again that is on Spielman since that is his direct staff. Davidson didn't do anything while he was here. I'm not going to give him much credit for Peterson when that was mostly all will and determination on Peterson's part vs any schemes or player development as a result of Davidson's coaching. Zimmer listened to his buddy and mentor Parcel's talk him into Sporano who's coaching record on the OLine is suspect at best. Combine average to poor coaching/player development with poor scouting and nobody should be surprised that we still have no idea if what we have can keep Bradford clean in the pocket and open up lanes for Cook and Murray.
more importantly, either way, a lot of us fans are going to be pretty unhappy with what's going on if we don't win games. The excitement is leveled off because the irritation levels are back to where they've been over the last decade. There's not much excuse left...
yet, right off the bat, we look at depth and think, "ooohh fuck..."
and we've got Sam Bradford. It's strange to have a good QB and still feel so uncertain over the rest of the roster.
I personally feel the the Spielman and Zimmer show might be over sooner than later. I am very concerned about this team and how they're going do this year. If they have a average or below average year the Wilf's might pull the plug.
I really hope I'm wrong and they have a great season and everyone's happy with Rick and Zim, just not real confident that's going to be the case.
- I disagree with the premise of the article -- I don't see Spielman's current actions (cutting Boone, trading for Brock and signing Floyd) as a sign of desperation. Boone was not playing up to his contract and would have become a distraction if he was benched; Mackenzie failed to develop as promised which is more on Zim than Spielman and Floyd is a Minny native with vast talents). The Patriots made 3 trades on September 2nd, does that mean they are desperate?
- As for who gets the blame or the credit for draft picks, I think it is a mixture of both the scouting staff and the coaching staff. I don't think Spielman would draft anyone that the coaching staff doesn't like and thought fitted the scheme. No one can tell me that Zimmer did not want Mackenzie. I think where Spielman deserves credit or blame is where he drafts guys. Beavers is an example of someone drafted too soon. On the other hand, Hunter was a steal.
- As for last year, I do blame Zimmer for bringing in too many former head coaches that didn't share Turner's vision. I think it really screwed up the offensive side of the ball. I also think the Boone cutting is partly due to the change in offensive philosophy that came out of having too many coaches with too many philosophies. Could you even imagine Zimmer hiring a coach that didn't totally buy into Zim's defensive philosophy? Well, that is what Zim did to Turner. Better thing would have been firing Turner right after the season ended.
Scroggins/Zulgad = super curmudgeons
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
Scoggins: Vikings' Spielman is low on chips in high-stakes roster gameRecent roster moves show that the Vikings general manager is feeling real pressure to deliver a winner this season and can't afford to sit patiently and hope that things improve.Sunday marked the one-year anniversary of Rick Spielman’s bold but necessary trade for Sam Bradford in a Hail Mary attempt to save the Vikings’ 2016 season after Teddy Bridgewater’s devastating knee injury.
In the pecking order of Spielman’s personnel decisions last season, nothing comes close to acquiring a starting quarterback at the cost of a first-round pick. His next three most important moves were signing free-agent guard Alex Boone and drafting receiver Laquon Treadwell in the first round and cornerback Mackensie Alexander in the second round.
Now fast-forward one year.
Spielman cut Boone on Saturday, leaving $3.4 million in dead money on the team’s tab. Spielman also traded for veteran cornerback Tramaine Brock over the weekend, presumably as insurance because Alexander has yet to prove he can handle the nickel-corner job. In May, Spielman took a gamble on wide receiver Michael Floyd after Treadwell contributed next-to-nothing in his rookie season.
Those moves show that the Vikings general manager is feeling real pressure to deliver a winner this season and can’t afford to sit patiently and hope that things improve.
The Vikings haven’t won a playoff game since 2009. Their 2016 season became an epic unraveling. No doubt the Wilf ownership expects to see substantial improvement and signs that the organization is on a championship trajectory in a season that will end with the Super Bowl extravaganza being held in their new home.
This is a critical season for Spielman’s operation, which puts those aforementioned moves into context...
http://www.startribune.com/vikings-gm-ri...442710173/
Typical bag on Spielman article. I can read better quality rants here.
If we don't cut Boone, the theory is he was held onto just because of Spielman's ego. If we don't go after an available corner/WR, Spielman is an idiot.
Don't agree that Zimmer is on the hot seat, but the Alexander pick is more on him than Rick. Doubt Rick picked a CB without Zimmer's full blessing. And the author probably had similar reaction to Rhodes after his first year.
My take on the Boone-doggle. I wonder if he was brought in as a last attempt to salvage Kalilalilly? The vocal nature, the attitude and all that to light a fire under Kalil. That failed and Boone wasn't what he once was, we cut bait an move on with youth. I see no problem in admitting mistakes and moving on.
The two favorite excuses for last season's collapse are injuries and offensive "confusion / misguidance" with Shurmur coming aboard and displacing Turner. (And placekicking, to some.) But what really disgusted me was the play of our defense, which just laid down for big chunks of games and in a few (Indianapolis) seemed disinterested. Aside from Shariff Floyd and a few dings to Barr and Smith, our defensive unity was healthy, and I don't think Norv called defensive alignments.
So if that BS play continues this year, it is ALL on Zimmer. That doesn't excuse Spielman, because I really think his biggest claim to being a good GM has been that he hired Zimmer. He has a terrible draft record after the 3rd round, and he accumulates a lot of 1st-round picks but has missed on at least half of them (10 #1s since 2011, only Smith and Rhodes were big hits). Free agents - meh. So if Zimmer turns out to be a mistake, why keep Spielman?
Quote: @Jor-El said:
The two favorite excuses for last season's collapse are injuries and offensive "confusion / misguidance" with Shurmur coming aboard and displacing Turner. (And placekicking, to some.) But what really disgusted me was the play of our defense, which just laid down for big chunks of games and in a few (Indianapolis) seemed disinterested. Aside from Shariff Floyd and a few dings to Barr and Smith, our defensive unity was healthy, and I don't think Norv called defensive alignments.
I agree with this and Jor-El did not even bring up the mini-mutiny by Newman. I don't really know what was going on behind the scenes -- easy to guess with the offensive unit (as I did above) because the exterior actions (coaching hires) were so clear -- much harder on the defensive side because all we could see were the results (as pointed out by Jor-El).
I think the worrisome question is whether the preseason play shows that whatever affected the team last year in the second half still lingers.
#3 overall defense. #3 overall pass defense. Not as good on the rushing side, but complaining about a unit that went from dead last to 3rd in 3 years seems a bit like you might be suffering from confirmation bias.
If the defense falters then yes that's all on Zim, and strong defense is the reason he's here. And he's built one, and the numbers back him up.
Seems like a lot of folks take that for granted, but it isn't, and if we move on from Zim you can expect the defense to get worse. Would it be worth it for the offensive side? Could be, but you've got to at least be realistic about the tradeoff you'd be making.
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