Quote: @TBro said:
@ Carl Knowles said:
If Rick can trade back a few spots and still land Barmore while picking up a 2nd round pick in the process... IMO, that would be an ideal way for the Vikings to kick off the 2021 NFL draft.
If Nixon, Marvin Wilson, Jaylen Twyman or Jay Tufele are also targets, I would consider trading up from round three to land one of them. But as Maroon mentioned, the combine will really make a difference in how these DT get stacked and valued.
The DT class is not top heavy, so, at this point you can't rule out the possibility that one of these second tier guys could actually fall to the Vikings at pick 79.
I think the Vikings like Shamar Stephens and he was PFF's 69th DT out of 127 (not great, but not bad for a 7th rd pick). The question is will the Vikings want to see what he can do lined up next to Michael Pierce and a healthy D. Hunter? Obviously I think he will look better.
James Lynch only had 59 snaps and needs to get much stronger in the off-season, but with that said, I do believe he has a moldable upside as does D.J. Wonnum (their best football is still ahead of them). My point being is A. Patterson and Zimmer might need to get more out of these two in young guys in 2021.
If the Vikings want to upgrade the 3T, I think they need to do it in the first two picks! And with a weak DT class and no second round pick, that puts some pressure on the Vikings.
DJ Wonnum is perfect example of how a great coach(Patterson) can unleash a player's true potential once they get to the Pro's. Since Superfreak brought up Iowa, I remember how AJ Epenesa went from a a can't miss first round talent to the 54th pick in the second round with the Bills. He was getting downgraded with his lack of quickness/explosiveness and had a massive freefall on draft day. He had bulked up to 280 at Iowa and struggled at the combine to showcase his skills. Leslie Frazier got a hold of him in Buffalo and had him drop 20 pounds while increasing his strength in the offseason. Since Buffalo's bye week, he has been their starting defensive end and the 3rd highest rated defensive lineman on the Bill's per PFF. Same applies with Nixon. If he has all the tools, and isn't just the product of Iowa's defensive scheme, Patterson will mold him into an excellent 3T. Watching his 71 yard Interception return for a touchdown against Penn State, his athleticism, his power to beat double teams, etc. are all things to get excited about with his potential. With the attention he draws from Offensive Lines, he also makes the players around him better. He might be getting more hype due to a down year for DT's but it's hard to argue with the skills and athleticism he displays on field. I think he definitely makes this defense a lot better up the middle if we can land him at 14 or Barmore who a lot people like better. I don't like the idea of trading down just because we don't have a second round pick. If we can land a stud like Nixon, or an OLineman like Wyatt Davis or Rashawn Slater you can always trade back into the second round with our extra picks. With the QB's getting overvalued in this draft, I'm hoping Davis will be there for us at 14.
I never thought AJ would be that great of a DE. The reason he was so good was because of his size and strength, not because of quickness. Daviyon was the real deal this year and has very good feet. I’d be happy if we took him at 14 but I agree with Geoff that I’d ultimately like to see us trade down and pick up a 2nd rounder in the process
Am I the only one that likes Leatherwood out of Bama? I could see him on the right or left...
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
Am I the only one that likes Leatherwood out of Bama? I could see him on the right or left...
He would be a great addition. I think he will continue to move up the draft boards the closer we get to April. He may not be available in a trade down scenario. That's why I'm against moving back because I fear the players we really want will all be gone by the end of the first.
Quote: @TBro said:
@ Carl Knowles said:
If Rick can trade back a few spots and still land Barmore while picking up a 2nd round pick in the process... IMO, that would be an ideal way for the Vikings to kick off the 2021 NFL draft.
If Nixon, Marvin Wilson, Jaylen Twyman or Jay Tufele are also targets, I would consider trading up from round three to land one of them. But as Maroon mentioned, the combine will really make a difference in how these DT get stacked and valued.
The DT class is not top heavy, so, at this point you can't rule out the possibility that one of these second tier guys could actually fall to the Vikings at pick 79.
I think the Vikings like Shamar Stephens and he was PFF's 69th DT out of 127 (not great, but not bad for a 7th rd pick). The question is will the Vikings want to see what he can do lined up next to Michael Pierce and a healthy D. Hunter? Obviously I think he will look better.
James Lynch only had 59 snaps and needs to get much stronger in the off-season, but with that said, I do believe he has a moldable upside as does D.J. Wonnum (their best football is still ahead of them). My point being is A. Patterson and Zimmer might need to get more out of these two in young guys in 2021.
If the Vikings want to upgrade the 3T, I think they need to do it in the first two picks! And with a weak DT class and no second round pick, that puts some pressure on the Vikings.
DJ Wonnum is perfect example of how a great coach(Patterson) can unleash a player's true potential once they get to the Pro's. Since Superfreak brought up Iowa, I remember how AJ Epenesa went from a a can't miss first round talent to the 54th pick in the second round with the Bills. He was getting downgraded with his lack of quickness/explosiveness and had a massive freefall on draft day. He had bulked up to 280 at Iowa and struggled at the combine to showcase his skills. Leslie Frazier got a hold of him in Buffalo and had him drop 20 pounds while increasing his strength in the offseason. Since Buffalo's bye week, he has been their starting defensive end and the 3rd highest rated defensive lineman on the Bill's per PFF. Same applies with Nixon. If he has all the tools, and isn't just the product of Iowa's defensive scheme, Patterson will mold him into an excellent 3T. Watching his 71 yard Interception return for a touchdown against Penn State, his athleticism, his power to beat double teams, etc. are all things to get excited about with his potential. With the attention he draws from Offensive Lines, he also makes the players around him better. He might be getting more hype due to a down year for DT's but it's hard to argue with the skills and athleticism he displays on field. I think he definitely makes this defense a lot better up the middle if we can land him at 14 or Barmore who a lot people like better. I don't like the idea of trading down just because we don't have a second round pick. If we can land a stud like Nixon, or an OLineman like Wyatt Davis or Rashawn Slater you can always trade back into the second round with our extra picks. With the QB's getting overvalued in this draft, I'm hoping Davis will be there for us at 14.
Sorry, but some people need to get a reality check about the "great" reputation of our coaching staff here, especially in terms of developing d-linemen. OK, let's get Hunter out of the way immediately: HUGE success, credit where it's due. But...name another, please?? Scott Crichton, Jaleel Johnson, Jalyn Holmes?? Free agent Datone Jones? Did Patterson develop Shariff Floyd into a consistent player in the two full seasons he coached him before his injury? How did he fare at unleashing the enormous talent of Sheldon Richardson? Should I go as far as BJ Dubose and Armon Watts? I liked seeing Wonnum have some success, but it was pretty limited and we have seen other players like Stephen Weatherly and Ifeadi Odenigbo look decent in a part-time role but never develop into more, so forgive me for not holding my breath this time. Every training camp we hear this staff has some great young defensive line talent in development like Tashawn Bower or Ade Aruna who "could be starting for other teams in the league"....but when any of these guys have to start for us, we see the reality: they are scrubs who aren't good enough for the NFL.
We had Griffen and Robison here before Zimmer/Patterson, we paid good free agent money for a proven NT in Joseph, and this team hit a home run with Hunter. But the reality is that they have 10 player development strikeouts for every Hunter. There is a pervasive myth that the Vikings coaching staff has player development superpowers, and that's why Spielman can trade higher draft picks to get a buttload of day 3 selections. But none of those players develop, so we have no reliable depth, and every year we have to discard the season because of injuries.
Vikings need to draft players who are NFL-ready, like Jefferson or Kendricks, because they won't get better here.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Sounds like Barmore is definitely back in the conversation. But I wouldn't call Barmore more physically dominant unless you don't consider speed a physical characteristic.
Just some way too early observations: Barmore is bigger and looks better against the run and Nixon looks like a better pass rusher. I think for these two it will come down to pre-draft numbers. Combine times, arm length, etc and whether you need help with the pass or the run.
Either way, we need a 3T in the worst way. What if both Nixon and Barmore before 14? Then we're stuck. Free agency is over and adding a middle round rookie to that group does us no good. We need a star there. Don't take chances: get your 3T in FA.
I think you're right that we should address 3T in free agency. My preference would be to draft a definite LT like Christian Darrisaw, keep Cleveland at one of the OG positions. I believe you have been suggesting Sheldon Rankins as a FA, right? He seems to be a little inconsistent and had some injuries (the two are likely related). I like that he's relatively young and can still improve with coaching. But Spotrac estimates his market value at $11.3M/yr - maybe that's high, but even so, can we afford him?
We can afford pretty much anything we want. It just depends on what sacrifices we're willing to make. Right now, I have us cutting Rudolph, Bailey and Stephen and restructuring a couple, and that should give us enough for Rankins and maybe a mid-tier guard. But if you want more than that, there is a TON of money to be found if you're willing to trade or release Reiff or Harry.
Rankins has been injured almost every year since he was drafted. That's why I think you can get him for somewhere between 8 and 12. I have him at 10. Still, he's a 1st round draft pick who shows flashes when he's healthy. The injuries are a concern, but he gets past them, it's a home run.
This is basically how I anticipate it going. We'll see what ends up on the market but they'll sacrifice for a 3T because penetration along the interior D-line ends up improving both of your DEs and your entire secondary. Personally I don't think Nixon smells a top-15 pick, Barramore might since he as the ceiling to support it and Alabama's basically an interior D-line factory.
Crazy idea that's probably unrealistic... but I would call the Jets and offer pick #14 for #34 and Quinnen Williams. That's a late 1st round valuation and might be a little light comp wise. But they definitely tried to see what they could get for him this past trade deadline. He would be a monster under Zimmer and Patterson. All for a cap hit under $3M.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Sounds like Barmore is definitely back in the conversation. But I wouldn't call Barmore more physically dominant unless you don't consider speed a physical characteristic.
Just some way too early observations: Barmore is bigger and looks better against the run and Nixon looks like a better pass rusher. I think for these two it will come down to pre-draft numbers. Combine times, arm length, etc and whether you need help with the pass or the run.
Either way, we need a 3T in the worst way. What if both Nixon and Barmore before 14? Then we're stuck. Free agency is over and adding a middle round rookie to that group does us no good. We need a star there. Don't take chances: get your 3T in FA.
I think you're right that we should address 3T in free agency. My preference would be to draft a definite LT like Christian Darrisaw, keep Cleveland at one of the OG positions. I believe you have been suggesting Sheldon Rankins as a FA, right? He seems to be a little inconsistent and had some injuries (the two are likely related). I like that he's relatively young and can still improve with coaching. But Spotrac estimates his market value at $11.3M/yr - maybe that's high, but even so, can we afford him?
We can afford pretty much anything we want. It just depends on what sacrifices we're willing to make. Right now, I have us cutting Rudolph, Bailey and Stephen and restructuring a couple, and that should give us enough for Rankins and maybe a mid-tier guard. But if you want more than that, there is a TON of money to be found if you're willing to trade or release Reiff or Harry.
Rankins has been injured almost every year since he was drafted. That's why I think you can get him for somewhere between 8 and 12. I have him at 10. Still, he's a 1st round draft pick who shows flashes when he's healthy. The injuries are a concern, but he gets past them, it's a home run.
This is basically how I anticipate it going. We'll see what ends up on the market but they'll sacrifice for a 3T because penetration along the interior D-line ends up improving both of your DEs and your entire secondary. Personally I don't think Nixon smells a top-15 pick, Barramore might since he as the ceiling to support it and Alabama's basically an interior D-line factory.
Crazy idea that's probably unrealistic... but I would call the Jets and offer pick #14 for #34 and Quinnen Williams. That's a late 1st round valuation and might be a little light comp wise. But they definitely tried to see what they could get for him this past trade deadline. He would be a monster under Zimmer and Patterson. All for a cap hit under $3M.
You might be right about Nixon. Right now the only draft observers who have him in the top 15 are Kiper and those who think Kiper might know something and adjusted their rankings accordingly. But like I said elsewhere, I suspect that where Barmore and Nixon go will depend a lot on their athletic numbers and their arm lengths.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Sounds like Barmore is definitely back in the conversation. But I wouldn't call Barmore more physically dominant unless you don't consider speed a physical characteristic.
Just some way too early observations: Barmore is bigger and looks better against the run and Nixon looks like a better pass rusher. I think for these two it will come down to pre-draft numbers. Combine times, arm length, etc and whether you need help with the pass or the run.
Either way, we need a 3T in the worst way. What if both Nixon and Barmore before 14? Then we're stuck. Free agency is over and adding a middle round rookie to that group does us no good. We need a star there. Don't take chances: get your 3T in FA.
I think you're right that we should address 3T in free agency. My preference would be to draft a definite LT like Christian Darrisaw, keep Cleveland at one of the OG positions. I believe you have been suggesting Sheldon Rankins as a FA, right? He seems to be a little inconsistent and had some injuries (the two are likely related). I like that he's relatively young and can still improve with coaching. But Spotrac estimates his market value at $11.3M/yr - maybe that's high, but even so, can we afford him?
We can afford pretty much anything we want. It just depends on what sacrifices we're willing to make. Right now, I have us cutting Rudolph, Bailey and Stephen and restructuring a couple, and that should give us enough for Rankins and maybe a mid-tier guard. But if you want more than that, there is a TON of money to be found if you're willing to trade or release Reiff or Harry.
Rankins has been injured almost every year since he was drafted. That's why I think you can get him for somewhere between 8 and 12. I have him at 10. Still, he's a 1st round draft pick who shows flashes when he's healthy. The injuries are a concern, but he gets past them, it's a home run.
This is basically how I anticipate it going. We'll see what ends up on the market but they'll sacrifice for a 3T because penetration along the interior D-line ends up improving both of your DEs and your entire secondary. Personally I don't think Nixon smells a top-15 pick, Barramore might since he as the ceiling to support it and Alabama's basically an interior D-line factory.
Crazy idea that's probably unrealistic... but I would call the Jets and offer pick #14 for #34 and Quinnen Williams. That's a late 1st round valuation and might be a little light comp wise. But they definitely tried to see what they could get for him this past trade deadline. He would be a monster under Zimmer and Patterson. All for a cap hit under $3M.
If the Vikings could pull off that trade I'd go streaking around town on draft day.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media1.giphy.com/media/xTiTnhnM639JYZ0xXy/giphy.gif)
Quote: @PurpleCrush said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Sounds like Barmore is definitely back in the conversation. But I wouldn't call Barmore more physically dominant unless you don't consider speed a physical characteristic.
Just some way too early observations: Barmore is bigger and looks better against the run and Nixon looks like a better pass rusher. I think for these two it will come down to pre-draft numbers. Combine times, arm length, etc and whether you need help with the pass or the run.
Either way, we need a 3T in the worst way. What if both Nixon and Barmore before 14? Then we're stuck. Free agency is over and adding a middle round rookie to that group does us no good. We need a star there. Don't take chances: get your 3T in FA.
I think you're right that we should address 3T in free agency. My preference would be to draft a definite LT like Christian Darrisaw, keep Cleveland at one of the OG positions. I believe you have been suggesting Sheldon Rankins as a FA, right? He seems to be a little inconsistent and had some injuries (the two are likely related). I like that he's relatively young and can still improve with coaching. But Spotrac estimates his market value at $11.3M/yr - maybe that's high, but even so, can we afford him?
We can afford pretty much anything we want. It just depends on what sacrifices we're willing to make. Right now, I have us cutting Rudolph, Bailey and Stephen and restructuring a couple, and that should give us enough for Rankins and maybe a mid-tier guard. But if you want more than that, there is a TON of money to be found if you're willing to trade or release Reiff or Harry.
Rankins has been injured almost every year since he was drafted. That's why I think you can get him for somewhere between 8 and 12. I have him at 10. Still, he's a 1st round draft pick who shows flashes when he's healthy. The injuries are a concern, but he gets past them, it's a home run.
This is basically how I anticipate it going. We'll see what ends up on the market but they'll sacrifice for a 3T because penetration along the interior D-line ends up improving both of your DEs and your entire secondary. Personally I don't think Nixon smells a top-15 pick, Barramore might since he as the ceiling to support it and Alabama's basically an interior D-line factory.
Crazy idea that's probably unrealistic... but I would call the Jets and offer pick #14 for #34 and Quinnen Williams. That's a late 1st round valuation and might be a little light comp wise. But they definitely tried to see what they could get for him this past trade deadline. He would be a monster under Zimmer and Patterson. All for a cap hit under $3M.
If the Vikings could pull off that trade I'd go streaking around town on draft day.
You'll have company.
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
@ PurpleCrush said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Sounds like Barmore is definitely back in the conversation. But I wouldn't call Barmore more physically dominant unless you don't consider speed a physical characteristic.
Just some way too early observations: Barmore is bigger and looks better against the run and Nixon looks like a better pass rusher. I think for these two it will come down to pre-draft numbers. Combine times, arm length, etc and whether you need help with the pass or the run.
Either way, we need a 3T in the worst way. What if both Nixon and Barmore before 14? Then we're stuck. Free agency is over and adding a middle round rookie to that group does us no good. We need a star there. Don't take chances: get your 3T in FA.
I think you're right that we should address 3T in free agency. My preference would be to draft a definite LT like Christian Darrisaw, keep Cleveland at one of the OG positions. I believe you have been suggesting Sheldon Rankins as a FA, right? He seems to be a little inconsistent and had some injuries (the two are likely related). I like that he's relatively young and can still improve with coaching. But Spotrac estimates his market value at $11.3M/yr - maybe that's high, but even so, can we afford him?
We can afford pretty much anything we want. It just depends on what sacrifices we're willing to make. Right now, I have us cutting Rudolph, Bailey and Stephen and restructuring a couple, and that should give us enough for Rankins and maybe a mid-tier guard. But if you want more than that, there is a TON of money to be found if you're willing to trade or release Reiff or Harry.
Rankins has been injured almost every year since he was drafted. That's why I think you can get him for somewhere between 8 and 12. I have him at 10. Still, he's a 1st round draft pick who shows flashes when he's healthy. The injuries are a concern, but he gets past them, it's a home run.
This is basically how I anticipate it going. We'll see what ends up on the market but they'll sacrifice for a 3T because penetration along the interior D-line ends up improving both of your DEs and your entire secondary. Personally I don't think Nixon smells a top-15 pick, Barramore might since he as the ceiling to support it and Alabama's basically an interior D-line factory.
Crazy idea that's probably unrealistic... but I would call the Jets and offer pick #14 for #34 and Quinnen Williams. That's a late 1st round valuation and might be a little light comp wise. But they definitely tried to see what they could get for him this past trade deadline. He would be a monster under Zimmer and Patterson. All for a cap hit under $3M.
If the Vikings could pull off that trade I'd go streaking around town on draft day.
You'll have company.
As long as social distancing rules apply I'm cool with it.
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