Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Change is scary. But that was a lot of facts I laid out about why there's legitimate reasons to project this team being as good if not better than last year.
Its not the change I'm worried about, but saying what you laid out as 'facts' is pretty strong. Its a good, well thought out opinion. Another opinion is that the defense will be worse and tell me how Kubiak is really going to be that big a difference maker? That's a leap of faith. And that's really what you are basing your opinion mostly on as far as improvement. I don't see that personally.
Well for whatever it’s worth, in Kubiaks 12 years as an OC,
he had a top 5 offense (in terms of yards) 8 of the years. Obviously that was a while ago, as he
graduated to HC for many years. In his
22 years of combined OC and HC experience, he’s had 19 seasons of top 16 offenses.
I don’t think we’ll necessarily see a massive upgrade in
playcalling over the Stefanski-Kubiak combo, but I do trust that we’ll get the
OLine improved and it will open up our offense against teams that force us to
pass from a more traditional look.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Change is scary. But that was a lot of facts I laid out about why there's legitimate reasons to project this team being as good if not better than last year.
Its not the change I'm worried about, but saying what you laid out as 'facts' is pretty strong. Its a good, well thought out opinion. Another opinion is that the defense will be worse and tell me how Kubiak is really going to be that big a difference maker? That's a leap of faith. And that's really what you are basing your opinion mostly on as far as improvement. I don't see that personally.
WTF? He won a Superbowl with Manning after like 12 neck surgeries. And it wasn't all Defense. Sanders and Thomas both 1,000 yard years. He made Osweiler and Schaub look like Average or Above Average QBs.
His track record is a mile long. That's a fact. Just because he sat in a fucking booth during game day doesn't mean he had any influence whatsoever on in-game playcalling. He may have helped create the scripted plays to start a game and the overall game plan itself but we all know it's about how you react during the game when those plans start to falter that is critical.
I have presented proof that Stefanski was in charge of in-game adjustments via Cousins statement that Kevin almost didn't go Hurry Up in the 2nd Half against Denver until they were ready to leave the locker room.
Where's the proof that Gary was making those decisions? Where's the proof that Kevin was just a clipboard holder? Show me that to counterbalance the undeniable FACT that Kubiak has had years upon years of successful playcalling.
Only in Minnesota can you upgrade from an a first time OC to a former Superbowl winning HC with years of successful playcalling and call it a Leap of Faith that he will be an upgrade. JFC!
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Change is scary. But that was a lot of facts I laid out about why there's legitimate reasons to project this team being as good if not better than last year.
Its not the change I'm worried about, but saying what you laid out as 'facts' is pretty strong. Its a good, well thought out opinion. Another opinion is that the defense will be worse and tell me how Kubiak is really going to be that big a difference maker? That's a leap of faith. And that's really what you are basing your opinion mostly on as far as improvement. I don't see that personally.
WTF? He won a Superbowl with Manning after like 12 neck surgeries. And it wasn't all Defense. Sanders and Thomas both 1,000 yard years. He made Osweiler and Schaub look like Average or Above Average QBs.
His track record is a mile long. That's a fact. Just because he sat in a fucking booth during game day doesn't mean he had any influence whatsoever on in-game playcalling. He may have helped create the scripted plays to start a game and the overall game plan itself but we all know it's about how you react during the game when those plans start to falter that is critical.
I have presented proof that Stefanski was in charge of in-game adjustments via Cousins statement that Kevin almost didn't go Hurry Up in the 2nd Half against Denver until they were ready to leave the locker room.
Where's the proof that Gary was making those decisions? Where's the proof that Kevin was just a clipboard holder? Show me that to counterbalance the undeniable FACT that Kubiak has had years upon years of successful playcalling.
Only in Minnesota can you upgrade from an a first time OC to a former Superbowl winning HC with years of successful playcalling and call it a Leap of Faith that he will be an upgrade. JFC!
I agree with everything you say here, FSU. But you would do better to come off a wee bit less incredulous. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a fucking idiot. Only the ones who disagree with me. B)
Not worried at this point. A lot of horse trading and roster movement between now and training camp. I think we all have those favorites we'd like to keep...or cut. I trust the Brez.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
No. Fact: Xavier Rhodes was bottom 5% at his position. Maybe bottom 3%. That's Remmers/Compton/Elflien bad. Waynes was barely better than average. Alexander was good enough despite playing out of position.
Fact: Shamar Stephen had virtually no QB hurries despite playing a lot of snaps. Fact: Griff wore down yet again during the 2nd half of the season.
Here's two more facts: Minnesota was 5th in Scoring Defense and Top 10 in Turnovers. With a barely average CB, a complete garbage CB, an utterly useless 3T and an RDE that vanished for half the year.
Honestly, I think many here see things work one way and believe that's the only way. The Vikings will not be the same stingy Defensive team of old that forced 3 & Outs and is lethal on 3rd Down. But do they need to be if the Offense takes another step forward?
We just saw a Defense in the Superbowl that had just as much or more capital in it lose while the opposing Defense was less dominant with far less invested in it but capable of doing just enough to win.
Zimmer tried to build an Elite Defense to counter not having a Franchise QB. He failed. But the team has one now. And Mike showed last season he's savvy enough to get production from a declining Unit.
Get him a high pick on CB and a typical Zimmer Special reclamation project veteran plus Hughes and Hill, who can't get busted for dope if/when the new deal gets done. Get him a 3T in the 2nd Round. The youth infusion will get burnt from time to time, that's part of being young. But they will also provide some splash plays, which Rhodes, Waynes, Stephen et al couldn't do.
And then there's the Offense. Terrible LG that killed at least 1 drive per game via blown assignments and penalties. Rookie Center that improved throughout the season that really needs a full offseason in an NFL weight room. Good enough RG and RT. Missed their best WR for half the year. Rookie OC who stuck with the original gameplan too long many times. And yet still a Top 10 Offense.
Top 10 Offense, folks. Getting a healthy Thielen for a full year. 1,000% certain to upgrade at LG and possibly even LT given how great this Draft Class is. 2nd year in the ideal system for the QB. And a SIGNIFICANT upgrade at Offensive Coordinator. Gary Kubiak has called plays for the better part of what, 2 decades? Stefanski, bless his heart, had less than a season and a half. Gary won a Superbowl with a QB that had no arm strength left while coaxing 1,000 yard seasons out of 2 WRs. How is that not a massive upgrade?
Losing Harris will hurt. Losing the Kicking Game will hurt. If one or the other is retained that only strengthens the team. Replacing over the hill and overrated players on Defense will not cause it to fall off a cliff. Fixing the glaring holes on Offense (LG & OC) with a 2nd year in the same system and growth from Irv means it will likely ascend to Top 5.
It's the way Minnesota projects to be good that is making you all so nervous. Top 3 Defense and Completely Average Offense is giving way to Top 5 Offense and still better than average and maybe even Top 10 Defense.
Change is scary. But that was a lot of facts I laid out about why there's legitimate reasons to project this team being as good if not better than last year.
That's an interesting take. But I'm not confident they will make all the right moves. Saying we ditch Rhodes and improve is good but will they? They hung on to him past time to dump him. They do this with aging vets. I just don't have the faith in Zimmer to play the right guys and get out of his own way. Or to somehow morph into a guy who wins most of the critical games instead of losing most of them.
Well, Krypton IS doomed...
But even from my cynical perspective, I'm going to say let's see how the next 6 weeks develop. We have a ton of question marks, but some of those could be resolved by re-signings, and some could even be opportunities for improvement.
FSUVike sees a path to getting better and that approach could work. My real doubt is whether Zimmer can buy into it. Top 10 Offense? Sounds like a lot of risk-taking and I don't know if he'll put up with that, no matter how Kubiak urges him. Hopefully Zimmer trusts Kubiak as much as he apparently did Shurmur, not a tougher relationship like he has had with other OCs.
My biggest worry is that the Vikings' 2020 plans might be overly dependent on Dalvin Cook, who could hold out or get hurt. I like Mattison but he seems to be a member of a RB committee, not a single feature back. I hope they will supplement their RB talent in FA or draft so they could operate without Cook if need be.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ FSUVike said:
No. Fact: Xavier Rhodes was bottom 5% at his position. Maybe bottom 3%. That's Remmers/Compton/Elflien bad. Waynes was barely better than average. Alexander was good enough despite playing out of position.
Fact: Shamar Stephen had virtually no QB hurries despite playing a lot of snaps. Fact: Griff wore down yet again during the 2nd half of the season.
Here's two more facts: Minnesota was 5th in Scoring Defense and Top 10 in Turnovers. With a barely average CB, a complete garbage CB, an utterly useless 3T and an RDE that vanished for half the year.
Honestly, I think many here see things work one way and believe that's the only way. The Vikings will not be the same stingy Defensive team of old that forced 3 & Outs and is lethal on 3rd Down. But do they need to be if the Offense takes another step forward?
We just saw a Defense in the Superbowl that had just as much or more capital in it lose while the opposing Defense was less dominant with far less invested in it but capable of doing just enough to win.
Zimmer tried to build an Elite Defense to counter not having a Franchise QB. He failed. But the team has one now. And Mike showed last season he's savvy enough to get production from a declining Unit.
Get him a high pick on CB and a typical Zimmer Special reclamation project veteran plus Hughes and Hill, who can't get busted for dope if/when the new deal gets done. Get him a 3T in the 2nd Round. The youth infusion will get burnt from time to time, that's part of being young. But they will also provide some splash plays, which Rhodes, Waynes, Stephen et al couldn't do.
And then there's the Offense. Terrible LG that killed at least 1 drive per game via blown assignments and penalties. Rookie Center that improved throughout the season that really needs a full offseason in an NFL weight room. Good enough RG and RT. Missed their best WR for half the year. Rookie OC who stuck with the original gameplan too long many times. And yet still a Top 10 Offense.
Top 10 Offense, folks. Getting a healthy Thielen for a full year. 1,000% certain to upgrade at LG and possibly even LT given how great this Draft Class is. 2nd year in the ideal system for the QB. And a SIGNIFICANT upgrade at Offensive Coordinator. Gary Kubiak has called plays for the better part of what, 2 decades? Stefanski, bless his heart, had less than a season and a half. Gary won a Superbowl with a QB that had no arm strength left while coaxing 1,000 yard seasons out of 2 WRs. How is that not a massive upgrade?
Losing Harris will hurt. Losing the Kicking Game will hurt. If one or the other is retained that only strengthens the team. Replacing over the hill and overrated players on Defense will not cause it to fall off a cliff. Fixing the glaring holes on Offense (LG & OC) with a 2nd year in the same system and growth from Irv means it will likely ascend to Top 5.
It's the way Minnesota projects to be good that is making you all so nervous. Top 3 Defense and Completely Average Offense is giving way to Top 5 Offense and still better than average and maybe even Top 10 Defense.
Change is scary. But that was a lot of facts I laid out about why there's legitimate reasons to project this team being as good if not better than last year.
That's an interesting take. But I'm not confident they will make all the right moves. Saying we ditch Rhodes and improve is good but will they? They hung on to him past time to dump him. They do this with aging vets. I just don't have the faith in Zimmer to play the right guys and get out of his own way. Or to somehow morph into a guy who wins most of the critical games instead of losing most of them.
This is much harder for me to argue against because I don't have any facts. They kept Jared too long. Same with AP. I think a lot of us were unpleasantly surprised that Griff came back, though that turned out all right.
All I have is Mike's comments about it being a young man's game. And how many of his guys are FAs. And how hard it would be to keep most of them even if they all took home team discounts, which none are likely to do. And how much he probably hates playing so much Zone.
But honestly, I'm one million times more concerned that he tries to keep the dead weight than I am that Kubiak is somehow not a major upgrade from Stefanski.
Being on the last year of his deal and in Win Now mode may help him get over his separation anxiety regarding Rhodes and Company, though. And the fact that Rick is in the same boat and may not be inclined to let Zimmer talk him into keeping non-performing vets.
This is going to be one of the more fascinating offseasons in recent memory. Will they cut the dead weight? Will they target any Tier 1 FAs if they do let a bunch of guys walk? Or would they get multiple Tier 2 guys? Will they look Defense early and often in the Draft? Is there an in-house solution they already trust for some of these holes like Samia or Watts?
A reasoned approach would be to keep a vet or two (Waynes/Reiff) and use both the Draft and some Tier 2 FAs to address the holes. But will Rick & Mike feel like that's enough given their situation? Will the Wilfs address that before then? What is the average rainfall in the Amazon? Lots of drama ahead!
As others have said way to early to tell.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ comet52 said:
@ FSUVike said:
No. Fact: Xavier Rhodes was bottom 5% at his position. Maybe bottom 3%. That's Remmers/Compton/Elflien bad. Waynes was barely better than average. Alexander was good enough despite playing out of position.
Fact: Shamar Stephen had virtually no QB hurries despite playing a lot of snaps. Fact: Griff wore down yet again during the 2nd half of the season.
Here's two more facts: Minnesota was 5th in Scoring Defense and Top 10 in Turnovers. With a barely average CB, a complete garbage CB, an utterly useless 3T and an RDE that vanished for half the year.
Honestly, I think many here see things work one way and believe that's the only way. The Vikings will not be the same stingy Defensive team of old that forced 3 & Outs and is lethal on 3rd Down. But do they need to be if the Offense takes another step forward?
We just saw a Defense in the Superbowl that had just as much or more capital in it lose while the opposing Defense was less dominant with far less invested in it but capable of doing just enough to win.
Zimmer tried to build an Elite Defense to counter not having a Franchise QB. He failed. But the team has one now. And Mike showed last season he's savvy enough to get production from a declining Unit.
Get him a high pick on CB and a typical Zimmer Special reclamation project veteran plus Hughes and Hill, who can't get busted for dope if/when the new deal gets done. Get him a 3T in the 2nd Round. The youth infusion will get burnt from time to time, that's part of being young. But they will also provide some splash plays, which Rhodes, Waynes, Stephen et al couldn't do.
And then there's the Offense. Terrible LG that killed at least 1 drive per game via blown assignments and penalties. Rookie Center that improved throughout the season that really needs a full offseason in an NFL weight room. Good enough RG and RT. Missed their best WR for half the year. Rookie OC who stuck with the original gameplan too long many times. And yet still a Top 10 Offense.
Top 10 Offense, folks. Getting a healthy Thielen for a full year. 1,000% certain to upgrade at LG and possibly even LT given how great this Draft Class is. 2nd year in the ideal system for the QB. And a SIGNIFICANT upgrade at Offensive Coordinator. Gary Kubiak has called plays for the better part of what, 2 decades? Stefanski, bless his heart, had less than a season and a half. Gary won a Superbowl with a QB that had no arm strength left while coaxing 1,000 yard seasons out of 2 WRs. How is that not a massive upgrade?
Losing Harris will hurt. Losing the Kicking Game will hurt. If one or the other is retained that only strengthens the team. Replacing over the hill and overrated players on Defense will not cause it to fall off a cliff. Fixing the glaring holes on Offense (LG & OC) with a 2nd year in the same system and growth from Irv means it will likely ascend to Top 5.
It's the way Minnesota projects to be good that is making you all so nervous. Top 3 Defense and Completely Average Offense is giving way to Top 5 Offense and still better than average and maybe even Top 10 Defense.
Change is scary. But that was a lot of facts I laid out about why there's legitimate reasons to project this team being as good if not better than last year.
That's an interesting take. But I'm not confident they will make all the right moves. Saying we ditch Rhodes and improve is good but will they? They hung on to him past time to dump him. They do this with aging vets. I just don't have the faith in Zimmer to play the right guys and get out of his own way. Or to somehow morph into a guy who wins most of the critical games instead of losing most of them.
This is much harder for me to argue against because I don't have any facts. They kept Jared too long. Same with AP. I think a lot of us were unpleasantly surprised that Griff came back, though that turned out all right.
All I have is Mike's comments about it being a young man's game. And how many of his guys are FAs. And how hard it would be to keep most of them even if they all took home team discounts, which none are likely to do. And how much he probably hates playing so much Zone.
But honestly, I'm one million times more concerned that he tries to keep the dead weight than I am that Kubiak is somehow not a major upgrade from Stefanski.
Being on the last year of his deal and in Win Now mode may help him get over his separation anxiety regarding Rhodes and Company, though. And the fact that Rick is in the same boat and may not be inclined to let Zimmer talk him into keeping non-performing vets.
This is going to be one of the more fascinating offseasons in recent memory. Will they cut the dead weight? Will they target any Tier 1 FAs if they do let a bunch of guys walk? Or would they get multiple Tier 2 guys? Will they look Defense early and often in the Draft? Is there an in-house solution they already trust for some of these holes like Samia or Watts?
A reasoned approach would be to keep a vet or two (Waynes/Reiff) and use both the Draft and some Tier 2 FAs to address the holes. But will Rick & Mike feel like that's enough given their situation? Will the Wilfs address that before then? What is the average rainfall in the Amazon? Lots of drama ahead!
A lot of people are referencing that lame duck status.. question is will Wilf re-up Zim and possibly Rick in the next few months? Rumor is he will.
I just feel like we know what Zimmers ceiling is, not that he couldn't luck his way to a championship but what a longshot that is!
have to hope you are right about Kubiak. Maybe he'll hold Zimmer's hand through the scary stuff like big games that Mike seems to mostly fail to navigate.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ comet52 said:
@ FSUVike said:
No. Fact: Xavier Rhodes was bottom 5% at his position. Maybe bottom 3%. That's Remmers/Compton/Elflien bad. Waynes was barely better than average. Alexander was good enough despite playing out of position.
Fact: Shamar Stephen had virtually no QB hurries despite playing a lot of snaps. Fact: Griff wore down yet again during the 2nd half of the season.
Here's two more facts: Minnesota was 5th in Scoring Defense and Top 10 in Turnovers. With a barely average CB, a complete garbage CB, an utterly useless 3T and an RDE that vanished for half the year.
Honestly, I think many here see things work one way and believe that's the only way. The Vikings will not be the same stingy Defensive team of old that forced 3 & Outs and is lethal on 3rd Down. But do they need to be if the Offense takes another step forward?
We just saw a Defense in the Superbowl that had just as much or more capital in it lose while the opposing Defense was less dominant with far less invested in it but capable of doing just enough to win.
Zimmer tried to build an Elite Defense to counter not having a Franchise QB. He failed. But the team has one now. And Mike showed last season he's savvy enough to get production from a declining Unit.
Get him a high pick on CB and a typical Zimmer Special reclamation project veteran plus Hughes and Hill, who can't get busted for dope if/when the new deal gets done. Get him a 3T in the 2nd Round. The youth infusion will get burnt from time to time, that's part of being young. But they will also provide some splash plays, which Rhodes, Waynes, Stephen et al couldn't do.
And then there's the Offense. Terrible LG that killed at least 1 drive per game via blown assignments and penalties. Rookie Center that improved throughout the season that really needs a full offseason in an NFL weight room. Good enough RG and RT. Missed their best WR for half the year. Rookie OC who stuck with the original gameplan too long many times. And yet still a Top 10 Offense.
Top 10 Offense, folks. Getting a healthy Thielen for a full year. 1,000% certain to upgrade at LG and possibly even LT given how great this Draft Class is. 2nd year in the ideal system for the QB. And a SIGNIFICANT upgrade at Offensive Coordinator. Gary Kubiak has called plays for the better part of what, 2 decades? Stefanski, bless his heart, had less than a season and a half. Gary won a Superbowl with a QB that had no arm strength left while coaxing 1,000 yard seasons out of 2 WRs. How is that not a massive upgrade?
Losing Harris will hurt. Losing the Kicking Game will hurt. If one or the other is retained that only strengthens the team. Replacing over the hill and overrated players on Defense will not cause it to fall off a cliff. Fixing the glaring holes on Offense (LG & OC) with a 2nd year in the same system and growth from Irv means it will likely ascend to Top 5.
It's the way Minnesota projects to be good that is making you all so nervous. Top 3 Defense and Completely Average Offense is giving way to Top 5 Offense and still better than average and maybe even Top 10 Defense.
Change is scary. But that was a lot of facts I laid out about why there's legitimate reasons to project this team being as good if not better than last year.
That's an interesting take. But I'm not confident they will make all the right moves. Saying we ditch Rhodes and improve is good but will they? They hung on to him past time to dump him. They do this with aging vets. I just don't have the faith in Zimmer to play the right guys and get out of his own way. Or to somehow morph into a guy who wins most of the critical games instead of losing most of them.
This is much harder for me to argue against because I don't have any facts. They kept Jared too long. Same with AP. I think a lot of us were unpleasantly surprised that Griff came back, though that turned out all right.
All I have is Mike's comments about it being a young man's game. And how many of his guys are FAs. And how hard it would be to keep most of them even if they all took home team discounts, which none are likely to do. And how much he probably hates playing so much Zone.
But honestly, I'm one million times more concerned that he tries to keep the dead weight than I am that Kubiak is somehow not a major upgrade from Stefanski.
Being on the last year of his deal and in Win Now mode may help him get over his separation anxiety regarding Rhodes and Company, though. And the fact that Rick is in the same boat and may not be inclined to let Zimmer talk him into keeping non-performing vets.
This is going to be one of the more fascinating offseasons in recent memory. Will they cut the dead weight? Will they target any Tier 1 FAs if they do let a bunch of guys walk? Or would they get multiple Tier 2 guys? Will they look Defense early and often in the Draft? Is there an in-house solution they already trust for some of these holes like Samia or Watts?
A reasoned approach would be to keep a vet or two (Waynes/Reiff) and use both the Draft and some Tier 2 FAs to address the holes. But will Rick & Mike feel like that's enough given their situation? Will the Wilfs address that before then? What is the average rainfall in the Amazon? Lots of drama ahead!
A lot of people are referencing that lame duck status.. question is will Wilf re-up Zim and possibly Rick in the next few months? Rumor is he will.
I just feel like we know what Zimmers ceiling is, not that he couldn't luck his way to a championship but what a longshot that is!
have to hope you are right about Kubiak. Maybe he'll hold Zimmer's hand through the scary stuff like big games that Mike seems to mostly fail to navigate.
OTOH, I felt the same way about Andy Reid for a number of years - that he had maxed out, Philadelphia knew he was never going to win a championship and made the right choice to move on, and that he would never have playoff success, let alone a Super Bowl victory. Yet now he has a championship.
Does that prove that if a coach like Reid - or Zimmer - just keeps trying, he may "luck his way to a championship" and not even be that much of a longshot? Maybe. But I wonder if Reid would have won had he stayed with the Eagles, due to my concern that NFL coaches never do best in their first HC job. It seems like they lose a job and realize what they did wrong and become more adaptable. Can Zimmer improve without losing his first job?
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