Kirk in Minnesota long term?

[Guest]

@Norse said:

@JustinTime18™ said:
At what point is our record reflective of the horse shit defense? At what point do we look at the history of drafting a QB high is no guarantee for success?

This isn't hard, folks.

Always making excuses for Cousins. If Cousins would have a better at 3rd down conversion rate maybe the Defense wouldn’t have been so gassed.
Plus the coaching staff on both sides of the ball just plain sucked.

While you're making excuses for the OL, the defense and the coach. Maybe if the Vikings hadn't run it so much on 1st down, Cousins wouldn't have been tasked with converting so many 3rd and longs, when the pressure gets cranked up to 11. That said, the stat everyone should pay attention to is passer rating from a clean pocket. Kirk has finished 1st in that stat three years in a row, so we're not talking about some flukey thing here. Maybe throw more on 1st down, shore up the IOL and see what happens. I'd bet good things. 

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@Norse said:

@JustinTime18™ said:
At what point is our record reflective of the horse shit defense? At what point do we look at the history of drafting a QB high is no guarantee for success?

This isn't hard, folks.

Always making excuses for Cousins. If Cousins would have a better at 3rd down conversion rate maybe the Defense wouldn’t have been so gassed.
Plus the coaching staff on both sides of the ball just plain sucked.

While you're making excuses for the OL, the defense and the coach. Maybe if the Vikings hadn't run it so much on 1st down, Cousins wouldn't have been tasked with converting so many 3rd and longs, when the pressure gets cranked up to 11. That said, the stat everyone should pay attention to is passer rating from a clean pocket. Kirk has finished 1st in that stat three years in a row, so we're not talking about some flukey thing here. Maybe throw more on 1st down, shore up the IOL and see what happens. I'd bet good things. 

According to the stats I'm looking at the Vikings ranked 17th in the league rushing the football on 1st down (31.02%), so they didn't run it "so much" on 1st downs forcing them into difficult 3rd situations. The problem was overall execution, penalties, and Kirk checking down on throws that didn't move the chains.

I'm also not surprised that he ranks first in the league with a clean pocket, but that's the problem is that clean pockets at the NFL level are fairly rare. It's why the league is moving towards more mobile quarterbacks that can improvise when the play breaks down. That isn't Cousins and why I don't feel he should be consistently paid like one of the top guys in the league at his position. From my count there are 8 quarterbacks in this league that are clear cut better quarterbacks then Cousins, and another 7 or 8 you could make an argument for. So why are we consistently paying this guy huge money while we are trying to figure out our salary cap situation every offseason? It's time to get off the merry go round and if we can add draft capital in the process it's win -win...

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@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Norse said:

@JustinTime18™ said:
At what point is our record reflective of the horse shit defense? At what point do we look at the history of drafting a QB high is no guarantee for success?

This isn't hard, folks.

Always making excuses for Cousins. If Cousins would have a better at 3rd down conversion rate maybe the Defense wouldn’t have been so gassed.
Plus the coaching staff on both sides of the ball just plain sucked.

While you're making excuses for the OL, the defense and the coach. Maybe if the Vikings hadn't run it so much on 1st down, Cousins wouldn't have been tasked with converting so many 3rd and longs, when the pressure gets cranked up to 11. That said, the stat everyone should pay attention to is passer rating from a clean pocket. Kirk has finished 1st in that stat three years in a row, so we're not talking about some flukey thing here. Maybe throw more on 1st down, shore up the IOL and see what happens. I'd bet good things. 

According to the stats I'm looking at the Vikings ranked 17th in the league rushing the football on 1st down (31.02%), so they didn't run it "so much" on 1st downs forcing them into difficult 3rd situations. The problem was overall execution, penalties, and Kirk checking down on throws that didn't move the chains.

I'm also not surprised that he ranks first in the league with a clean pocket, but that's the problem is that clean pockets at the NFL level are fairly rare. It's why the league is moving towards more mobile quarterbacks that can improvise when the play breaks down. That isn't Cousins and why I don't feel he should be consistently paid like one of the top guys in the league at his position. From my count there are 8 quarterbacks in this league that are clear cut better quarterbacks then Cousins, and another 7 or 8 you could make an argument for. So why are we consistently paying this guy huge money while we are trying to figure out our salary cap situation every offseason? It's time to get off the merry go round and if we can add draft capital in the process it's win -win...

No but the issue was on second down. If you take out the YPC when facing 2nd and 10+ then the Vikes were extremely inefficient. I believe it’s like 3.5 YPC when facing less than 10 yards thus creating the long 3rd downs. Pretty predictable play calling this year created a lot of rough 3rd down situations

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@HappyViking said:

@comet52 said:

@JustinTime18™ said:

@comet52 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@comet52 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@comet52 said:
I don't want Matt Stafford any more than I want Kirk.  I didn't want Trent Dilfer after he won a ring with the Ravens.  I want the franchise to find a real franchise qb, the kind of guy who makes you relevant every year, not the guy who if you put the perfect team around him and have a bunch of luck he might win it once in his career.  

Hey, you're not asking for much are ya? LOL

Here are all the QBs taken in the 1st round since 2010. There's 39 QBs here. I've bolded the ones I think pass your test. There are five of them. And I'm being nice with a couple, because only 1 of the 39 has won a Super Bowl. So 5 outta 39. That's 12%. We have a 12% chance of finding that guy in the draft. Even in the 1st round. And MOST of these guys are top 10 picks. We likely won't be picking that high. 

I would bold Watson and maybe Luck.   The team hasn't had that type of guy since Fran, outside of Favre's last good year, the only year since Wilf bought the team where they had a legit shot at a title.

I'm not asking for much in light of a franchise failing to find the right guy for 4 decades and funny, failing to even get to a SB since then.   Your saying it's hard to achieve greatness so don't bother trying.  

No, I'm saying it's hard to find greatness in the draft. But you can go buy it. 

You can't put Luck or Watson in bold. Neither one is even a starter. Not saying they weren't a good draft pick. Just that they aren't currently meeting your criteria. Or helping their teams. There are a hundred reasons QBs fail. Injury, off-field issues are just two of them. But it does (or should) make you appreciate character and durability in a veteran if you can find it. 

See how the first 2/3 of the list is unbolded? Only recently did we start to see some success. But it makes you wonder:  is the NFL getting better at identifying talent? Or have those picks just not had enough time to fuck up yet? 

Herbert, Burrow, Allen and Murray look good now, but Bradford, RGIII, and Cam Newton were all rookies of the year. Teams who drafted Luck, Winston, Mariota, Wentz, Goff, Trubisky, and Bridgewater thought they hit paydirt too. 

Kirk is not who I would gamble my new career on if I were KAM/KOC.  Just my gambler's opinion...

Who would you go after?

Ideally Stroud or Young in 2023.  

I' d trade Kirk, find a vet to bridge the coming year.  I'd tank it for 2022.  

So, just take a year off from enjoying the season, or would you just watch and smile with each int, fumble, sack, and loss?  Sounds miserable to me.

I watched mostly that same sad shit the last two years under a clueless, directionless regime.  Watching it under a regime with a real plan wouldn't bother me.   But I have a long term goal orientation, while most fan's orientation is "make me happy now."

Also decades of Viking fandom have pretty much eroded away the attachment.  I still love the game and hope they do well but you get to where they've stabbed you in the heart enough times, you kinda have to develop a defensive posture lol.

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@JustinTime18™ said:

@HappyViking said:

@comet52 said:

@JustinTime18™ said:

@comet52 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@comet52 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@comet52 said:
I don't want Matt Stafford any more than I want Kirk.  I didn't want Trent Dilfer after he won a ring with the Ravens.  I want the franchise to find a real franchise qb, the kind of guy who makes you relevant every year, not the guy who if you put the perfect team around him and have a bunch of luck he might win it once in his career.  

Hey, you're not asking for much are ya? LOL

Here are all the QBs taken in the 1st round since 2010. There's 39 QBs here. I've bolded the ones I think pass your test. There are five of them. And I'm being nice with a couple, because only 1 of the 39 has won a Super Bowl. So 5 outta 39. That's 12%. We have a 12% chance of finding that guy in the draft. Even in the 1st round. And MOST of these guys are top 10 picks. We likely won't be picking that high. 

I would bold Watson and maybe Luck.   The team hasn't had that type of guy since Fran, outside of Favre's last good year, the only year since Wilf bought the team where they had a legit shot at a title.

I'm not asking for much in light of a franchise failing to find the right guy for 4 decades and funny, failing to even get to a SB since then.   Your saying it's hard to achieve greatness so don't bother trying.  

No, I'm saying it's hard to find greatness in the draft. But you can go buy it. 

You can't put Luck or Watson in bold. Neither one is even a starter. Not saying they weren't a good draft pick. Just that they aren't currently meeting your criteria. Or helping their teams. There are a hundred reasons QBs fail. Injury, off-field issues are just two of them. But it does (or should) make you appreciate character and durability in a veteran if you can find it. 

See how the first 2/3 of the list is unbolded? Only recently did we start to see some success. But it makes you wonder:  is the NFL getting better at identifying talent? Or have those picks just not had enough time to fuck up yet? 

Herbert, Burrow, Allen and Murray look good now, but Bradford, RGIII, and Cam Newton were all rookies of the year. Teams who drafted Luck, Winston, Mariota, Wentz, Goff, Trubisky, and Bridgewater thought they hit paydirt too. 

Kirk is not who I would gamble my new career on if I were KAM/KOC.  Just my gambler's opinion...

Who would you go after?

Ideally Stroud or Young in 2023.  

I' d trade Kirk, find a vet to bridge the coming year.  I'd tank it for 2022.  

So, just take a year off from enjoying the season, or would you just watch and smile with each int, fumble, sack, and loss?  Sounds miserable to me.

Yup. Same people who want to tank will be the same people whining about preseason losses. 

Oh please.  

[Guest]

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@purplefaithful said:
I suspect when they extend KC, his $ will be less than Brady, Mahomes, Allen or Rogers...

But he deserves to be in the next tier. 

Brady has been playing for under 29 million...I wish we could get Kirk to see the benefit of that for him.

I'm sure Cousins and every player wished they were married to a supermodel worth $400 million. Alas just Brady, so the comparison is brutal.  Easy to take way less when your wife pulls  tens of millions more in annual salary than you. 

kirk has made 160 million in his career.... does it really fucking matter at that point?  if this is about the money for kirk at this point... I think that would make the decision even that much easier to move on from him.

And there it is, the painfully transparent jealous fan whining about "how much is enough" post. He's paid exactly what the market has dictated he be paid. If you arent getting paid what your profession dictates, you may want to take a look at the guy representing you at pay bump time.

If you are getting paid what you're worth. I sure hope you don't have know it alls who've never done your job obsessing about you online. Simply because you're better off financially and can do something they never could. 

Simply because you or I will never sniff that amount of money doesn't mean he, or any athlete doesnt deserve every penny they make.  Because NCAAF and NFL chew these guys up and spit them out to make insane profits. 

You have absolutely no clue what these guys give up. Family,  physical and mental health, substance abuse issues among much more. All a direct result of playing a game for your entertainment. I'm sure if you could "play the game for free" you would. Until you've actually played and realize it's not the fantasyland version Joe Sixpack thinks it is.

Lol,  there it is,  the starbucks  shrink has busted me. Give me a fucking break.  If I was really worked up over people getting over paid I wouldn't be a fan of pro sports and certainly wouldn't have spent the many thousands I have over my lifetime to follow my teams. 

 I could care less what he gets paid,  except its a capped league and the more they over pay any 1 player, the less they have to fix other positions.... so if he really wants to say he's here to help the team win,  then he will accept an offer that will do just that, ( like Brady)  if not then he is just a mercenary doing it for the money and will not ever be the team guy we need at the QB position.

But keep working on the shrink shit its amusing if nothing else.

Swing and a miss. I've worked in mental health since 2003, nothing Starbucks about my college education or licensure. Lol, no jealousy at all on your part. Meanwhile you just gave the epitome of a cranky old man sermon from your front porch.   

LOL...thanks for the resume,  I still hear Starbucks.

Jesus, if that constituted a resume the short attention span theatre playing out between your ears is worse than I thought. I mean how many times are you going to ask and have answered the question about Tom Brady taking less money? Here I thought it was jealousy and it's much more likely a TBI or early onset dementia. Best of luck in either case. 

Here i thought it was starbucks.... sounding much more like crackerjacks or a happy meal now.   Either way,  best of luck in your pursuits regardless of their origin. 

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@purplefaithful said:

Yeah, let's take a FAN poll before making a decision. LOL.

When it comes right down to it, and you weigh the ups and downs of all the options, a long-term extension with void years is probably the best. It allows us to add a few pieces to the defense and compete for a title in '22 and '23. Trade a player for a '23 pick, trade down in '22 for a '23 pick. Do whatever you have to do to maneuver into a high pick in '23. Draft the QB then. If you miss, you still have Cousins. If you hit, Cousins can be traded or voided. 

Sounds reasonable but what are the details of this proposed long term extension? How are you going to structure that deal where it lowers this year's cap enough (at least 10M but hopefully closer to 20M in savings)?  Supposing that both sides are amenable to void years, there is likely no chance of a trade in 2023 without a massive dead money cap hit.  In 2024, it will be less but he will be turning 36 prior to that season. What team is going to trade for a 36 year old Cousins who presumably has a deal close to 35M per year or moe?

This sounds like a good idea but needs details to reveal if it truly is smart.

[Guest]

@bigbone62 said:

@MarkSP18 said:
Teams that Cousins has been the starter for have made the playoffs 2 times in 7 years and never consecutively.  But there are always excuses.

The offensive line, the defense, the coaching, the scheme, etc.

At the end of the day, the playoff appearances is on his resume forever.

It would be asinine for the current regime to invest multiple additional years in this dude that for one reason or another, doesn't get his team to the playoffs.

Matthew Stafford made the playoffs three times in his first12 years. The Stafford "excuses" as you put it were coaching, defense, oline, and scheme. Amazing what happened when he went to a team that paid attention to the OL, put him in a position scheme wise to win and had a good defense. 

You think the Vikings have NOT paid attention to the offensive line the last few drafts?  They got two 1st round picks, two 2nd round picks, and a 3rd round pick. Bradbury is a disappoint in the pass blocking department and Davis is yet to be seen.  The other three are two promising players and one good one.

I am not going to talk about the scheme because it is an excuse. They passed more than they ran and JJ should have set a record.  They moved the ball but failed to score better (14th in scoring is not a top offense). A new scheme may do a bit more but how much really?

But your analogy of comparing Stafford going to the Rams vs the current Vikings situation is quite a stretch.  The Vikings defense is not close to the Rams defense and one more offseason of a free agent or two plus some presumably high draft picks is not likely to get to the Rams level.

So, you can extend the QB and then hope your moves amount to a much improved defense. If they do not or even if it takes a season or two for the young rookies, you have just spent more huge money on the QB with possibly not even making the playoffs or squeaking in and getting thumped.

This plan has risks as well.

[Guest]

@Zanary said:

@MarkSP18 said:
Teams that Cousins has been the starter for have made the playoffs 2 times in 7 years and never consecutively.  But there are always excuses.

The offensive line, the defense, the coaching, the scheme, etc.

At the end of the day, the playoff appearances is on his resume forever.

It would be asinine for the current regime to invest multiple additional years in this dude that for one reason or another, doesn't get his team to the playoffs.

I think that with the current draft and the lack of free agents that they should let him play it out.

They can absorb the 45M cap hit or ask him to add one void year to move some dead money to 2023.

If he is able to get his team to the playoffs, then they can talk extension in 2023.

If not, then they'll have tons of cap space and can figure it out.

The last two men who invested a ton of cap space and multiple years in this QB got fired.

But many Vikings fans want to continue to invest in this QB and expect that the team is going to improve the pass rush, corners, run defense, and interior offensive line pass blocking this year in free agency and the draft.

Good luck with all of that.

I am hoping and praying that this team can just get into the freaking playoffs in 2022.

Some considerations:

When an o-line is typically in the bottom quarter of the league rankings, that's no longer an excuse, it's a reason.  A play can't develop if the defense lives in the backfield, something functional fans understand and others strangely find unimportant.  This is beyond baffling.

Some of the Cousins Hate Mafia like to point to the Bengals' bad line as an excuse to hate out on Cousins, yet it took a mis-called "fumble" for them to beat us...and that line ultimately cost Cincy the big game.

Similarly, when the defense is rated in the same region as the Leslie Frazier era...and our coach is a "defensive guru" who has gotten to do a LOT of defensive player shopping/coaching during his tenure...that team isn't going to the postseason.  That's a helluva reason.  If you require clarification, re-watch the end of the loss to Detroit, or go back a season to Kamara running for 6 TDs through Zimmer's defense.

REASONS.

The team gets itself to the playoffs, not one dude.  That said:

The infamous cap hit came from him allowing him to restructure some of his money away from 2020, to help the team then.  That barely gets mentioned, because haters are...well, themselves.

Do they ever wonder why we could never seem to keep OCs, or accurate kickers...or build a consistent OL around our QBs?  Keenum lucked out, but his history before and after 2017 shows that season to be a one-off.  Philly kinda nailed that down.

Regarding our consistently productive, consistently under center, dork of a QB?

He's not perfect, and he's actually a mystery to me in some ways.  In Washington, he was on a team with known bipolar ownership and was treated like crap because they'd been all-in on RGIII.  With Minnesota, the OL has been rated as junk all 4 years, the defense has declined, and the head coach has been increasingly proven to be both obsolete and a petulant little jerk.  I don't actually know what he'll look like with an offensively-effective coaching staff, real support from same, and more allowances to do things like "audible" and have input on plays, etc.

The entire team, and the new staff, are basically auditioning this season.  I'd prefer, for cap reasons, for them to find an extension that gives both financial relief and continuity that would be a breath of fresh air after the recent mess.

It reads as if you are trying to call me a hater.  I do not post here much after leaving Purple Thoughts but this is a good reason as to why.

Here is a little silly off season plan I wrote for the Daily Norseman back in 2018 BEFORE the Vikings signed Cousins.  Fans there were saying the team could not afford him and wanted to show that they could.   I was a fan of the initial signing.

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2018/2/8/1...qb-edition

I disagree 100% about him allowing a restructure. It was an extension plain and simple. The team did not need the 10M in cap savings as they proved it when they traded for Yannick Ngakoue and then traded him away 7 weeks (or so) into the season while paying Yannick 7M in that time frame.

A person does not have to be hater to believe the team should move on from this QB.

[Guest]

@StickyBun said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@StickyBun said:

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@purplefaithful said:
I suspect when they extend KC, his $ will be less than Brady, Mahomes, Allen or Rogers...

But he deserves to be in the next tier. 

Brady has been playing for under 29 million...I wish we could get Kirk to see the benefit of that for him.

I'm sure Cousins and every player wished they were married to a supermodel worth $400 million. Alas just Brady, so the comparison is brutal.  Easy to take way less when your wife pulls  tens of millions more in annual salary than you. 

kirk has made 160 million in his career.... does it really fucking matter at that point?  if this is about the money for kirk at this point... I think that would make the decision even that much easier to move on from him.

And there it is, the painfully transparent jealous fan whining about "how much is enough" post. He's paid exactly what the market has dictated he be paid. If you arent getting paid what your profession dictates, you may want to take a look at the guy representing you at pay bump time.

If you are getting paid what you're worth. I sure hope you don't have know it alls who've never done your job obsessing about you online. Simply because you're better off financially and can do something they never could. 

Simply because you or I will never sniff that amount of money doesn't mean he, or any athlete doesnt deserve every penny they make.  Because NCAAF and NFL chew these guys up and spit them out to make insane profits. 

You have absolutely no clue what these guys give up. Family,  physical and mental health, substance abuse issues among much more. All a direct result of playing a game for your entertainment. I'm sure if you could "play the game for free" you would. Until you've actually played and realize it's not the fantasyland version Joe Sixpack thinks it is.

I said as much last week. Nothing screams tone deaf more than the 'how much money is enough' stuff from fans. Nonsensical.

Then why did Brady play for less then?  

Hard to say....

Take a look at the D rankings for those SB winning teams. I'll wait.