This topic is going to be beaten like a broken drum until the beginning of March, isn't it?
There are so many variables that are going to go into this QB decision that its not worth stressing out about it right now. For starters Zimmer needs to name an O-coordinator. That person is going to have a say in who is their QB. Obviously they won't make the final decision, but they deserve a voice at the table. I doubt any new OC is going to bring in a vastly different philosophy so that likely isn't a factor.
The overall off-season plan is also going to be a major consideration as well. This team has more holes than the QB position and if the Vikings want to spend money addressing those it may end up limiting the overall $ and term they can offer. Cap space isn't going to necessarily be an issue, but you need to consider future cap obligations and the ability to retain your own talent. If the Vikings end up wanting to set aside $30M for a QB then anything is really on the table.
Lastly you have to see your external options. Its easy to talk about Brees, Cousins, Smith, Taylor, etc... At this point it is way to early to know who is going to be available.
Take a few days off guys. There are so many factors that are going to go into this in addition to how good is Keenum? How good is Keenum compared to Bridgewater, etc...
Quote: @Ilovebigtd's said:
teddy is gonna be under center week 1
We get your stance already
Quote: @Ilovebigtd's said:
teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap.
cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.
I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ Ilovebigtd's said:
teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap.
cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.
I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.
I think its valuable you point out that the Vikings window is going to be open for less time than most think. The current roster as it stands today probably has 3 more chances at a SB before it needs to be restructured. But we've seen teams get lucky with strong draft classes as well that can extend championship windows for an indefinite amount of time.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
This topic is going to be beaten like a broken drum until the beginning of March, isn't it?
There are so many variables that are going to go into this QB decision that its not worth stressing out about it right now. For starters Zimmer needs to name an O-coordinator. That person is going to have a say in who is their QB. Obviously they won't make the final decision, but they deserve a voice at the table. I doubt any new OC is going to bring in a vastly different philosophy so that likely isn't a factor.
The overall off-season plan is also going to be a major consideration as well. This team has more holes than the QB position and if the Vikings want to spend money addressing those it may end up limiting the overall $ and term they can offer. Cap space isn't going to necessarily be an issue, but you need to consider future cap obligations and the ability to retain your own talent. If the Vikings end up wanting to set aside $30M for a QB then anything is really on the table.
Lastly you have to see your external options. Its easy to talk about Brees, Cousins, Smith, Taylor, etc... At this point it is way to early to know who is going to be available.
Take a few days off guys. There are so many factors that are going to go into this in addition to how good is Keenum? How good is Keenum compared to Bridgewater, etc...
Good advice. LMAO, yeah we're on the verge of burning ourselves out on this subject already. It won't be answered anytime soon.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ Steve said:
Two words for you Steve:
73 QBR
We're talking about one game that was an all time beautiful win, and another where pass protection was problematic - including the pick 6 which was a lucky tip. (yeah, the Eagles made their luck, but if that arm is moved slightly that was a completed pass and we're complimenting Case for standing tough and making the throw).
In the end, it's all on Zimmer to make the best decision, but I have a hard time seeing a good coach hit the reset button. The window with the core set of players that got us to 13-3 is slim. I can see a case being made for Sam/Teddy competing to be starters - guys shouldn't lose their job to injury, and they should know the offense and have chemistry with our current players - they have years of familiarity that matter.
(Personally, I root for Teddy, but I think I have a little less faith in him winning a starting role than a lot of people)
All that being said, competition is good and necessary. As long as the Vikings win the first 19 games next year, I'll be happy - whoever is QB.
You know what keeps your windows open longer? A franchise QB-that is how you should always approach that position, trying to find that. I've been hearing the window is only x years as long as I can remember but the only extended period of no success was about 89-92 and 2010 to 2014.
If you draft well, are smart with the cap, you will always be competitive, if you find a top 10 QB you'll always have a post season shot. As for SB you have to be in it to win it. Draft to maintain/improve talent and depth and never stop looking for a top QB.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ Ilovebigtd's said:
teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap.
cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.
I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.
I think its valuable you point out that the Vikings window is going to be open for less time than most think. The current roster as it stands today probably has 3 more chances at a SB before it needs to be restructured. But we've seen teams get lucky with strong draft classes as well that can extend championship windows for an indefinite amount of time.
Extending windows is all about drafting well in the late rounds. The success of the '15 and '17 classes should give us a little bigger window than what is typically expected. If we can draft well again in '18, we can take it even further.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ Ilovebigtd's said:
teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap.
cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.
I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.
I think its valuable you point out that the Vikings window is going to be open for less time than most think. The current roster as it stands today probably has 3 more chances at a SB before it needs to be restructured. But we've seen teams get lucky with strong draft classes as well that can extend championship windows for an indefinite amount of time.
Extending windows is all about drafting well in the late rounds. The success of the '15 and '17 classes should give us a little bigger window than what is typically expected. If we can draft well again in '18, we can take it even further.
This and what Nodak posted above (get yourself a top 10 qb) and you'll give yourself a better chance over a longer period of time to have "a window" than the avg NFL team.
Frankly, it's amazing the Vikings have been in the post-season as much as they have with how they've managed the position and how snake-bit they've been at the position too.
The problem is until Favre and one year with Keenum, wins in the post-season have been hard to come by.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I would say Case is partially to blame, but it isn't all on him. The offensive line didn't do him any favors tonight, but he missed throws too. Both Bridgewater/Bradford would have performed poorly with such little time. I do think this gives you some hesitation before you tag him for $23M though. You have the defense and skill players, do you risk it for $23M on Keenum or call all in on a more proven commodity (Brees/Cousins).
Worst situation for any of qb's was exactly what happened. To fall behind and get one dimensional. Against that D, on the road, on grass.
Brees? Hell yah, but I don't see him leaving that town or franchise. I know they've got some cap issues and players to reconcile with but the Saints (imo) have a very bright future and strong, young nucleus. Lordy I am tired of the qb questions that have plagued this franchise since Pepp went down in 05. UGH
Geoff, I'm starting to wonder if that vaunted Viking D is really schematically that good? They've looked pretty vulnerable as of late. Not sure how much of this to lay at the feet of Zimm/Edwards vs Players? Maybe it's not an either or thing...And someone will surely call me out for questioning them given the statistics they put on the board this year.
I think that is a fair question. I think you saw a little bit tonight how the Vikings D is superbly talented but really relies on good play calling. You can look back in previous threads and this has really been my gripe for 2 years now. When called correctly the Vikings play incredibly well and allow next to nothing. But when they get out of rhythm things go off the rails.
Last year I called it a "lack of swag" and I still believe that is true. Being able to play off the script is key and what makes a good defense great. Look at what killed them tonight, broken plays. At that point you need to ad lib and go with your instincts. At some point I do think you can coach the instincts out of players to religiously play the system. But, the system isn't designed for broken plays.
Zimmer is one of the best defensive coaches in the league. But giving his player the reigns to play what they see could make a massive difference moving forward.
The Defense doesn' have that Richard Sherman/Jalen Ramsey type attitude on the defense from one of the players. You don't need a team of that, but one guy needs to be that mouth... Captain was good at that, wish had stuck it out with us.
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