Jimmy G just signed in LV for relative pennies. He got $34M guaranteed so that means he'll be outta there in a year or two unless he sets the world on fire. He's made of glass and not as good as Kirk, definitely. But he's 31 and not bad. Him at $34M guaranteed seems like a steal versus Carr at $100M guaranteed. If reports are close to accurate, KC is wanting upwards of $40M more than Carr and over $100M more guaranteed versus Jimmy G! Put in that context, it's a tough pill to swallow. Like I've said all offseason I just don't think that's a commitment the Vikings will make, nor do they want to.
I think our golden parachute scenario right now, as ironic as it might be, is Rodgers spurning the Jets and staying in GB. NYJ gets desperate and overpays for Kirk, sending us picks and maybe Wilson in return. Yes we'd likely stink in 2023 which won't be fun, but we'd be set up very well to draft a QB either this year or next year and get this thing really rolling into 2024, which appears to be the endgoal anyway.
@ MaroonBells is right-- we don't want to become the Commanders. That'd suck. But I don't see any slam-dunk options right now so it's all a dice roll. Maybe KAM has an ace up his sleeve that we don't know about but I trust our coaching, ownership, and FO 1000% more than I trust Dan Snyder, Ron Rivera, and the boys in DC. So while jumping on the QB carousel is scary, I have faith it wouldn't get THAT ugly in Minnesota. At least not for long. Just my 2 cents which I've given multiple times now on this thread so I guess it's just my dime at this point.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I just don’t think it makes sense for the team to address
Cousins contract before the draft. I
think Cousins has a lot of incentive to get locked up long term prior to the
draft and a lot of the urgency is from his camp. I think long term plans become a lot more
solid after we figure out how the draft goes and we can give him an extension
later this offseason if we want to. It
would be negligent for us to not have QB of the future as an option on the
table in the draft, and our plans probably vary based on if we get a QB we feel
like we can work with. I think what
should happen is that if we draft a QB we really like, we should let Kirk ride
his contract out, and if not we should look at giving him another 2 years
guaranteed and 2 years of low salary with incentives to get it higher if he
wants that and we can get out of if we need to.
I just don’t think there’s any way to guarantee him big QB money past 2025
as he’d be 38 in 2026.
If we needed the money to go all in this year, and we needed
to redo his contract to get the money, that’d be one thing, but I just don’t
think we can rebuild this roster that quickly.
I think we probably have to be looking at 2023 as year to build our
foundation on defense and 2024 as the year to be SB competitive.
At the bold, its intuitive and that might very well end-up the case...
We'll see if they shake things up with FA/Draft. I have no idea if that's how KOC/KAM are viewing things.
As Guru points out, the Vikings may be ok with some extension, but for how long may be at odds with what the KC camp wants.
$42mm/year seems about right for him.
42 M per year is right for KC? Josh Allen is only 43, Pat Mahomes is 45, Kirk is no where near the level of player that they are and he is getting old. I would say, assuming you are going to over pay, he is worth no more than the 37.5 avg that Carr is shown as getting, which isnt really even that high since only 60 million is guaranteed so he is essentially playing for about 30 million a year, which is much more inline with what I said the team could justify for the position given the salaries they have to play KCs supporting cast to over come his short comings. No QB is perfect, but the less that they can do on their own ( in Kirks case its his lack of extending plays, or making plays with his legs ) then the better OL, running game, and receivers they need to compete at a high level. Kirks elite passing abilities only go so far when he is a virtual statue otherwise.
He wont play for that little, but the story doesnt change, so if why keep paying him high money if you wont have the team around him to get to the next level, trade him or let him play it out and move on.
Allen entered the NFL in 2018. Same year Cousins came to Minnesota. Over that time....
Josh Allen: 18,397, 138 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 Rating, comebacks led by QB=11, game winning drives=15
Kirk Cousins: 20,934, 153 TDs, 50 INTs, 101.6, comebacks led by QB=14, game winning drives=16
Even if you’re nice and throw out Allen’s rookie year because he started slow, Cousins still wins. Allen is younger and a better runner, I'll give you that. But the level to which Viking fans under-appreciate their QB is at a comical level.
you are starting a team tomorrow, for the record, do you take Kirk Cousins @ 42 million, or Josh Allen @ 43 million? Personally I think 43 is to much for Allen, but he may not have reached his ceiling yet, pretty sure we know what we are going to get from KC.
I take Allen every day and twice on Sunday. He's younger, more mobile and he's a weapon on the ground. But to say that Cousins is "nowhere near" the level of Allen is just not true. As a passer, Cousins is actually better.
My fear is that we're going to move on from our very good QB and become the Commanders, who ditched their very good QB, and have since started 14 different QBs in 5 years.
I don't think we're that stupid though. I think we play hardball with KC, at least until the draft, then TRY to draft a QB we like. If we don't get one, we give Kirk what he wants. If we do, we let the '23 season determine the next move.
I think he actually looked worse last year than in the past, and that wasnt a stat thing, just wasnt delivering the ball with the same precision and timing as in the past, sure it may have been the new system, but he has been in so many new systems I have a hard time thinking that was the problem.
I seem to remember someone defending his 8-win prediction by saying that the expectations for Cousins in '22, given the new scheme, should be lowered--that we couldn't possibly see a fully effective Cousins until year two in the offense. And any kind of optimism from those predicting 10, 11 wins in year one was vomiting purple kool-aid. Well, here we are. Should we expect more from Cousins this year? Or was that just you trying to sound even more pessimistic than usual. :p
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I just don’t think it makes sense for the team to address
Cousins contract before the draft. I
think Cousins has a lot of incentive to get locked up long term prior to the
draft and a lot of the urgency is from his camp. I think long term plans become a lot more
solid after we figure out how the draft goes and we can give him an extension
later this offseason if we want to. It
would be negligent for us to not have QB of the future as an option on the
table in the draft, and our plans probably vary based on if we get a QB we feel
like we can work with. I think what
should happen is that if we draft a QB we really like, we should let Kirk ride
his contract out, and if not we should look at giving him another 2 years
guaranteed and 2 years of low salary with incentives to get it higher if he
wants that and we can get out of if we need to.
I just don’t think there’s any way to guarantee him big QB money past 2025
as he’d be 38 in 2026.
If we needed the money to go all in this year, and we needed
to redo his contract to get the money, that’d be one thing, but I just don’t
think we can rebuild this roster that quickly.
I think we probably have to be looking at 2023 as year to build our
foundation on defense and 2024 as the year to be SB competitive.
At the bold, its intuitive and that might very well end-up the case...
We'll see if they shake things up with FA/Draft. I have no idea if that's how KOC/KAM are viewing things.
As Guru points out, the Vikings may be ok with some extension, but for how long may be at odds with what the KC camp wants.
$42mm/year seems about right for him.
42 M per year is right for KC? Josh Allen is only 43, Pat Mahomes is 45, Kirk is no where near the level of player that they are and he is getting old. I would say, assuming you are going to over pay, he is worth no more than the 37.5 avg that Carr is shown as getting, which isnt really even that high since only 60 million is guaranteed so he is essentially playing for about 30 million a year, which is much more inline with what I said the team could justify for the position given the salaries they have to play KCs supporting cast to over come his short comings. No QB is perfect, but the less that they can do on their own ( in Kirks case its his lack of extending plays, or making plays with his legs ) then the better OL, running game, and receivers they need to compete at a high level. Kirks elite passing abilities only go so far when he is a virtual statue otherwise.
He wont play for that little, but the story doesnt change, so if why keep paying him high money if you wont have the team around him to get to the next level, trade him or let him play it out and move on.
Allen entered the NFL in 2018. Same year Cousins came to Minnesota. Over that time....
Josh Allen: 18,397, 138 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 Rating, comebacks led by QB=11, game winning drives=15
Kirk Cousins: 20,934, 153 TDs, 50 INTs, 101.6, comebacks led by QB=14, game winning drives=16
Even if you’re nice and throw out Allen’s rookie year because he started slow, Cousins still wins. Allen is younger and a better runner, I'll give you that. But the level to which Viking fans under-appreciate their QB is at a comical level.
you are starting a team tomorrow, for the record, do you take Kirk Cousins @ 42 million, or Josh Allen @ 43 million? Personally I think 43 is to much for Allen, but he may not have reached his ceiling yet, pretty sure we know what we are going to get from KC.
I take Allen every day and twice on Sunday. He's younger, more mobile and he's a weapon on the ground. But to say that Cousins is "nowhere near" the level of Allen is just not true. As a passer, Cousins is actually better.
My fear is that we're going to move on from our very good QB and become the Commanders, who ditched their very good QB, and have since started 14 different QBs in 5 years.
I don't think we're that stupid though. I think we play hardball with KC, at least until the draft, then TRY to draft a QB we like. If we don't get one, we give Kirk what he wants. If we do, we let the '23 season determine the next move.
i agree with everything you said, except that part of them being on the same level,
Kirk is the better passer, but that not by a huge margin, as far as the rest, Kirk is not in the conversation for any of it.
Avoiding sacks, JA-- Kirk has one move and that is if they come in high he ducks, other than that I am pretty sure most of us could sack KC.
Off-script plays, JA-- Kirk has actually regressed at this IMO, he is locking onto JJ to often and when that isnt there ( well, he is usually sacked by that point ), but when he is able to avoid that sack and move out of pocket, he doesnt scramble well at all in terms of creating more time on his own to let receivers work open, he typically just drops his head and trys to get back to the LOS.
making plays with his legs, JA Kirk is really just not a runner, at all, watching him try and slide is like trying to watch a baby animal walk for the first time. He just looks so scared when running.
age JA-- once again, I know you think KC has discovered the fountain of youth, but I just dont see him playing a long time, especially at a higher level. I think he actually looked worse last year than in the past, and that wasnt a stat thing, just wasnt delivering the ball with the same precision and timing as in the past, sure it may have been the new system, but he has been in so many new systems I have a hard time thinking that was the problem.
I dont want to get in the middle of you two but..It doesn't matter how they compare.
Just as in previous years, what are the better options? And how good is KC compared to his counterparts? Who is going to max the potential of JJ and Hock?
The better options aren't out there.
That is unless they get very lucky in the draft - and that isnt the Vikings way (not since The Sheriff).
There is no middle of us two, we dont see Kirk or the roster the same way. more than one way to skin a cat.
a declining, or soon to be declining is who you want "maximizing" JJ and Hock in their prime?
the better option would have been to get off this merry go round a couple years ago, but since that didnt happen the next best option is to do it now, unless the goal isnt to build a championship team, if the goal is just to be good enough, then Kirk is your man.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I just don’t think it makes sense for the team to address
Cousins contract before the draft. I
think Cousins has a lot of incentive to get locked up long term prior to the
draft and a lot of the urgency is from his camp. I think long term plans become a lot more
solid after we figure out how the draft goes and we can give him an extension
later this offseason if we want to. It
would be negligent for us to not have QB of the future as an option on the
table in the draft, and our plans probably vary based on if we get a QB we feel
like we can work with. I think what
should happen is that if we draft a QB we really like, we should let Kirk ride
his contract out, and if not we should look at giving him another 2 years
guaranteed and 2 years of low salary with incentives to get it higher if he
wants that and we can get out of if we need to.
I just don’t think there’s any way to guarantee him big QB money past 2025
as he’d be 38 in 2026.
If we needed the money to go all in this year, and we needed
to redo his contract to get the money, that’d be one thing, but I just don’t
think we can rebuild this roster that quickly.
I think we probably have to be looking at 2023 as year to build our
foundation on defense and 2024 as the year to be SB competitive.
At the bold, its intuitive and that might very well end-up the case...
We'll see if they shake things up with FA/Draft. I have no idea if that's how KOC/KAM are viewing things.
As Guru points out, the Vikings may be ok with some extension, but for how long may be at odds with what the KC camp wants.
$42mm/year seems about right for him.
42 M per year is right for KC? Josh Allen is only 43, Pat Mahomes is 45, Kirk is no where near the level of player that they are and he is getting old. I would say, assuming you are going to over pay, he is worth no more than the 37.5 avg that Carr is shown as getting, which isnt really even that high since only 60 million is guaranteed so he is essentially playing for about 30 million a year, which is much more inline with what I said the team could justify for the position given the salaries they have to play KCs supporting cast to over come his short comings. No QB is perfect, but the less that they can do on their own ( in Kirks case its his lack of extending plays, or making plays with his legs ) then the better OL, running game, and receivers they need to compete at a high level. Kirks elite passing abilities only go so far when he is a virtual statue otherwise.
He wont play for that little, but the story doesnt change, so if why keep paying him high money if you wont have the team around him to get to the next level, trade him or let him play it out and move on.
Allen entered the NFL in 2018. Same year Cousins came to Minnesota. Over that time....
Josh Allen: 18,397, 138 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 Rating, comebacks led by QB=11, game winning drives=15
Kirk Cousins: 20,934, 153 TDs, 50 INTs, 101.6, comebacks led by QB=14, game winning drives=16
Even if you’re nice and throw out Allen’s rookie year because he started slow, Cousins still wins. Allen is younger and a better runner, I'll give you that. But the level to which Viking fans under-appreciate their QB is at a comical level.
you are starting a team tomorrow, for the record, do you take Kirk Cousins @ 42 million, or Josh Allen @ 43 million? Personally I think 43 is to much for Allen, but he may not have reached his ceiling yet, pretty sure we know what we are going to get from KC.
I take Allen every day and twice on Sunday. He's younger, more mobile and he's a weapon on the ground. But to say that Cousins is "nowhere near" the level of Allen is just not true. As a passer, Cousins is actually better.
My fear is that we're going to move on from our very good QB and become the Commanders, who ditched their very good QB, and have since started 14 different QBs in 5 years.
I don't think we're that stupid though. I think we play hardball with KC, at least until the draft, then TRY to draft a QB we like. If we don't get one, we give Kirk what he wants. If we do, we let the '23 season determine the next move.
I think he actually looked worse last year than in the past, and that wasnt a stat thing, just wasnt delivering the ball with the same precision and timing as in the past, sure it may have been the new system, but he has been in so many new systems I have a hard time thinking that was the problem.
I seem to remember someone defending his 8-win prediction by saying that the expectations for Cousins in '22, given the new scheme, should be lowered--that we couldn't possibly see a fully effective Cousins until year two in the offense. And any kind of optimism from those predicting 10, 11 wins in year one was vomiting purple kool-aid. Well, here we are. Should we expect more from Cousins this year? Or was that just you trying to sound even more pessimistic than usual. :p
yes, lets pretend that 13 wins was really because our team won 13 games. reality is that over half those wins were a coin flip ending that could have just as easily went the other way. This team was better than I expected in some aspects, but then again I didnt expect them to catch some teams on back up QBs so early on either. somebody found Case's slightly used horseshoe, and it still had a little luck left in it.
and no, I am not expecting to see an improved KC, but its early, FA and the draft may fix some of the things that have been hindering him ( like protection up the gut) but it wont make him elusive, or suddenly something he is not. He will however be a year older and that will have its affects, sooner or later, most likely sooner.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I just don’t think it makes sense for the team to address
Cousins contract before the draft. I
think Cousins has a lot of incentive to get locked up long term prior to the
draft and a lot of the urgency is from his camp. I think long term plans become a lot more
solid after we figure out how the draft goes and we can give him an extension
later this offseason if we want to. It
would be negligent for us to not have QB of the future as an option on the
table in the draft, and our plans probably vary based on if we get a QB we feel
like we can work with. I think what
should happen is that if we draft a QB we really like, we should let Kirk ride
his contract out, and if not we should look at giving him another 2 years
guaranteed and 2 years of low salary with incentives to get it higher if he
wants that and we can get out of if we need to.
I just don’t think there’s any way to guarantee him big QB money past 2025
as he’d be 38 in 2026.
If we needed the money to go all in this year, and we needed
to redo his contract to get the money, that’d be one thing, but I just don’t
think we can rebuild this roster that quickly.
I think we probably have to be looking at 2023 as year to build our
foundation on defense and 2024 as the year to be SB competitive.
At the bold, its intuitive and that might very well end-up the case...
We'll see if they shake things up with FA/Draft. I have no idea if that's how KOC/KAM are viewing things.
As Guru points out, the Vikings may be ok with some extension, but for how long may be at odds with what the KC camp wants.
$42mm/year seems about right for him.
42 M per year is right for KC? Josh Allen is only 43, Pat Mahomes is 45, Kirk is no where near the level of player that they are and he is getting old. I would say, assuming you are going to over pay, he is worth no more than the 37.5 avg that Carr is shown as getting, which isnt really even that high since only 60 million is guaranteed so he is essentially playing for about 30 million a year, which is much more inline with what I said the team could justify for the position given the salaries they have to play KCs supporting cast to over come his short comings. No QB is perfect, but the less that they can do on their own ( in Kirks case its his lack of extending plays, or making plays with his legs ) then the better OL, running game, and receivers they need to compete at a high level. Kirks elite passing abilities only go so far when he is a virtual statue otherwise.
He wont play for that little, but the story doesnt change, so if why keep paying him high money if you wont have the team around him to get to the next level, trade him or let him play it out and move on.
Allen entered the NFL in 2018. Same year Cousins came to Minnesota. Over that time....
Josh Allen: 18,397, 138 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 Rating, comebacks led by QB=11, game winning drives=15
Kirk Cousins: 20,934, 153 TDs, 50 INTs, 101.6, comebacks led by QB=14, game winning drives=16
Even if you’re nice and throw out Allen’s rookie year because he started slow, Cousins still wins. Allen is younger and a better runner, I'll give you that. But the level to which Viking fans under-appreciate their QB is at a comical level.
you are starting a team tomorrow, for the record, do you take Kirk Cousins @ 42 million, or Josh Allen @ 43 million? Personally I think 43 is to much for Allen, but he may not have reached his ceiling yet, pretty sure we know what we are going to get from KC.
I take Allen every day and twice on Sunday. He's younger, more mobile and he's a weapon on the ground. But to say that Cousins is "nowhere near" the level of Allen is just not true. As a passer, Cousins is actually better.
My fear is that we're going to move on from our very good QB and become the Commanders, who ditched their very good QB, and have since started 14 different QBs in 5 years.
I don't think we're that stupid though. I think we play hardball with KC, at least until the draft, then TRY to draft a QB we like. If we don't get one, we give Kirk what he wants. If we do, we let the '23 season determine the next move.
i agree with everything you said, except that part of them being on the same level,
Kirk is the better passer, but that not by a huge margin, as far as the rest, Kirk is not in the conversation for any of it.
Avoiding sacks, JA-- Kirk has one move and that is if they come in high he ducks, other than that I am pretty sure most of us could sack KC.
Off-script plays, JA-- Kirk has actually regressed at this IMO, he is locking onto JJ to often and when that isnt there ( well, he is usually sacked by that point ), but when he is able to avoid that sack and move out of pocket, he doesnt scramble well at all in terms of creating more time on his own to let receivers work open, he typically just drops his head and trys to get back to the LOS.
making plays with his legs, JA Kirk is really just not a runner, at all, watching him try and slide is like trying to watch a baby animal walk for the first time. He just looks so scared when running.
age JA-- once again, I know you think KC has discovered the fountain of youth, but I just dont see him playing a long time, especially at a higher level. I think he actually looked worse last year than in the past, and that wasnt a stat thing, just wasnt delivering the ball with the same precision and timing as in the past, sure it may have been the new system, but he has been in so many new systems I have a hard time thinking that was the problem.
I dont want to get in the middle of you two but..It doesn't matter how they compare.
Just as in previous years, what are the better options? And how good is KC compared to his counterparts? Who is going to max the potential of JJ and Hock?
The better options aren't out there.
That is unless they get very lucky in the draft - and that isnt the Vikings way (not since The Sheriff).
a declining, or soon to be declining is who you want "maximizing" JJ and Hock in their prime?
Yes. YES!
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I just don’t think it makes sense for the team to address
Cousins contract before the draft. I
think Cousins has a lot of incentive to get locked up long term prior to the
draft and a lot of the urgency is from his camp. I think long term plans become a lot more
solid after we figure out how the draft goes and we can give him an extension
later this offseason if we want to. It
would be negligent for us to not have QB of the future as an option on the
table in the draft, and our plans probably vary based on if we get a QB we feel
like we can work with. I think what
should happen is that if we draft a QB we really like, we should let Kirk ride
his contract out, and if not we should look at giving him another 2 years
guaranteed and 2 years of low salary with incentives to get it higher if he
wants that and we can get out of if we need to.
I just don’t think there’s any way to guarantee him big QB money past 2025
as he’d be 38 in 2026.
If we needed the money to go all in this year, and we needed
to redo his contract to get the money, that’d be one thing, but I just don’t
think we can rebuild this roster that quickly.
I think we probably have to be looking at 2023 as year to build our
foundation on defense and 2024 as the year to be SB competitive.
At the bold, its intuitive and that might very well end-up the case...
We'll see if they shake things up with FA/Draft. I have no idea if that's how KOC/KAM are viewing things.
As Guru points out, the Vikings may be ok with some extension, but for how long may be at odds with what the KC camp wants.
$42mm/year seems about right for him.
42 M per year is right for KC? Josh Allen is only 43, Pat Mahomes is 45, Kirk is no where near the level of player that they are and he is getting old. I would say, assuming you are going to over pay, he is worth no more than the 37.5 avg that Carr is shown as getting, which isnt really even that high since only 60 million is guaranteed so he is essentially playing for about 30 million a year, which is much more inline with what I said the team could justify for the position given the salaries they have to play KCs supporting cast to over come his short comings. No QB is perfect, but the less that they can do on their own ( in Kirks case its his lack of extending plays, or making plays with his legs ) then the better OL, running game, and receivers they need to compete at a high level. Kirks elite passing abilities only go so far when he is a virtual statue otherwise.
He wont play for that little, but the story doesnt change, so if why keep paying him high money if you wont have the team around him to get to the next level, trade him or let him play it out and move on.
Allen entered the NFL in 2018. Same year Cousins came to Minnesota. Over that time....
Josh Allen: 18,397, 138 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 Rating, comebacks led by QB=11, game winning drives=15
Kirk Cousins: 20,934, 153 TDs, 50 INTs, 101.6, comebacks led by QB=14, game winning drives=16
Even if you’re nice and throw out Allen’s rookie year because he started slow, Cousins still wins. Allen is younger and a better runner, I'll give you that. But the level to which Viking fans under-appreciate their QB is at a comical level.
you are starting a team tomorrow, for the record, do you take Kirk Cousins @ 42 million, or Josh Allen @ 43 million? Personally I think 43 is to much for Allen, but he may not have reached his ceiling yet, pretty sure we know what we are going to get from KC.
I take Allen every day and twice on Sunday. He's younger, more mobile and he's a weapon on the ground. But to say that Cousins is "nowhere near" the level of Allen is just not true. As a passer, Cousins is actually better.
My fear is that we're going to move on from our very good QB and become the Commanders, who ditched their very good QB, and have since started 14 different QBs in 5 years.
I don't think we're that stupid though. I think we play hardball with KC, at least until the draft, then TRY to draft a QB we like. If we don't get one, we give Kirk what he wants. If we do, we let the '23 season determine the next move.
i agree with everything you said, except that part of them being on the same level,
Kirk is the better passer, but that not by a huge margin, as far as the rest, Kirk is not in the conversation for any of it.
Avoiding sacks, JA-- Kirk has one move and that is if they come in high he ducks, other than that I am pretty sure most of us could sack KC.
Off-script plays, JA-- Kirk has actually regressed at this IMO, he is locking onto JJ to often and when that isnt there ( well, he is usually sacked by that point ), but when he is able to avoid that sack and move out of pocket, he doesnt scramble well at all in terms of creating more time on his own to let receivers work open, he typically just drops his head and trys to get back to the LOS.
making plays with his legs, JA Kirk is really just not a runner, at all, watching him try and slide is like trying to watch a baby animal walk for the first time. He just looks so scared when running.
age JA-- once again, I know you think KC has discovered the fountain of youth, but I just dont see him playing a long time, especially at a higher level. I think he actually looked worse last year than in the past, and that wasnt a stat thing, just wasnt delivering the ball with the same precision and timing as in the past, sure it may have been the new system, but he has been in so many new systems I have a hard time thinking that was the problem.
I dont want to get in the middle of you two but..It doesn't matter how they compare.
Just as in previous years, what are the better options? And how good is KC compared to his counterparts? Who is going to max the potential of JJ and Hock?
The better options aren't out there.
That is unless they get very lucky in the draft - and that isnt the Vikings way (not since The Sheriff).
a declining, or soon to be declining is who you want "maximizing" JJ and Hock in their prime?
Yes. YES!
and you like telling me to be careful for what I wish for?
if that is the route they go, I hope you are right.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I just don’t think it makes sense for the team to address
Cousins contract before the draft. I
think Cousins has a lot of incentive to get locked up long term prior to the
draft and a lot of the urgency is from his camp. I think long term plans become a lot more
solid after we figure out how the draft goes and we can give him an extension
later this offseason if we want to. It
would be negligent for us to not have QB of the future as an option on the
table in the draft, and our plans probably vary based on if we get a QB we feel
like we can work with. I think what
should happen is that if we draft a QB we really like, we should let Kirk ride
his contract out, and if not we should look at giving him another 2 years
guaranteed and 2 years of low salary with incentives to get it higher if he
wants that and we can get out of if we need to.
I just don’t think there’s any way to guarantee him big QB money past 2025
as he’d be 38 in 2026.
If we needed the money to go all in this year, and we needed
to redo his contract to get the money, that’d be one thing, but I just don’t
think we can rebuild this roster that quickly.
I think we probably have to be looking at 2023 as year to build our
foundation on defense and 2024 as the year to be SB competitive.
At the bold, its intuitive and that might very well end-up the case...
We'll see if they shake things up with FA/Draft. I have no idea if that's how KOC/KAM are viewing things.
As Guru points out, the Vikings may be ok with some extension, but for how long may be at odds with what the KC camp wants.
$42mm/year seems about right for him.
42 M per year is right for KC? Josh Allen is only 43, Pat Mahomes is 45, Kirk is no where near the level of player that they are and he is getting old. I would say, assuming you are going to over pay, he is worth no more than the 37.5 avg that Carr is shown as getting, which isnt really even that high since only 60 million is guaranteed so he is essentially playing for about 30 million a year, which is much more inline with what I said the team could justify for the position given the salaries they have to play KCs supporting cast to over come his short comings. No QB is perfect, but the less that they can do on their own ( in Kirks case its his lack of extending plays, or making plays with his legs ) then the better OL, running game, and receivers they need to compete at a high level. Kirks elite passing abilities only go so far when he is a virtual statue otherwise.
He wont play for that little, but the story doesnt change, so if why keep paying him high money if you wont have the team around him to get to the next level, trade him or let him play it out and move on.
Allen entered the NFL in 2018. Same year Cousins came to Minnesota. Over that time....
Josh Allen: 18,397, 138 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 Rating, comebacks led by QB=11, game winning drives=15
Kirk Cousins: 20,934, 153 TDs, 50 INTs, 101.6, comebacks led by QB=14, game winning drives=16
Even if you’re nice and throw out Allen’s rookie year because he started slow, Cousins still wins. Allen is younger and a better runner, I'll give you that. But the level to which Viking fans under-appreciate their QB is at a comical level.
you are starting a team tomorrow, for the record, do you take Kirk Cousins @ 42 million, or Josh Allen @ 43 million? Personally I think 43 is to much for Allen, but he may not have reached his ceiling yet, pretty sure we know what we are going to get from KC.
I take Allen every day and twice on Sunday. He's younger, more mobile and he's a weapon on the ground. But to say that Cousins is "nowhere near" the level of Allen is just not true. As a passer, Cousins is actually better.
My fear is that we're going to move on from our very good QB and become the Commanders, who ditched their very good QB, and have since started 14 different QBs in 5 years.
I don't think we're that stupid though. I think we play hardball with KC, at least until the draft, then TRY to draft a QB we like. If we don't get one, we give Kirk what he wants. If we do, we let the '23 season determine the next move.
I think he actually looked worse last year than in the past, and that wasnt a stat thing, just wasnt delivering the ball with the same precision and timing as in the past, sure it may have been the new system, but he has been in so many new systems I have a hard time thinking that was the problem.
I seem to remember someone defending his 8-win prediction by saying that the expectations for Cousins in '22, given the new scheme, should be lowered--that we couldn't possibly see a fully effective Cousins until year two in the offense. And any kind of optimism from those predicting 10, 11 wins in year one was vomiting purple kool-aid. Well, here we are. Should we expect more from Cousins this year? Or was that just you trying to sound even more pessimistic than usual. :p
yes, lets pretend that 13 wins was really because our team won 13 games. reality is that over half those wins were a coin flip ending that could have just as easily went the other way.
![[Image: VapidDizzyEasteuropeanshepherd-max-1mb.gif]](https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VapidDizzyEasteuropeanshepherd-max-1mb.gif)
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I just don’t think it makes sense for the team to address
Cousins contract before the draft. I
think Cousins has a lot of incentive to get locked up long term prior to the
draft and a lot of the urgency is from his camp. I think long term plans become a lot more
solid after we figure out how the draft goes and we can give him an extension
later this offseason if we want to. It
would be negligent for us to not have QB of the future as an option on the
table in the draft, and our plans probably vary based on if we get a QB we feel
like we can work with. I think what
should happen is that if we draft a QB we really like, we should let Kirk ride
his contract out, and if not we should look at giving him another 2 years
guaranteed and 2 years of low salary with incentives to get it higher if he
wants that and we can get out of if we need to.
I just don’t think there’s any way to guarantee him big QB money past 2025
as he’d be 38 in 2026.
If we needed the money to go all in this year, and we needed
to redo his contract to get the money, that’d be one thing, but I just don’t
think we can rebuild this roster that quickly.
I think we probably have to be looking at 2023 as year to build our
foundation on defense and 2024 as the year to be SB competitive.
At the bold, its intuitive and that might very well end-up the case...
We'll see if they shake things up with FA/Draft. I have no idea if that's how KOC/KAM are viewing things.
As Guru points out, the Vikings may be ok with some extension, but for how long may be at odds with what the KC camp wants.
$42mm/year seems about right for him.
42 M per year is right for KC? Josh Allen is only 43, Pat Mahomes is 45, Kirk is no where near the level of player that they are and he is getting old. I would say, assuming you are going to over pay, he is worth no more than the 37.5 avg that Carr is shown as getting, which isnt really even that high since only 60 million is guaranteed so he is essentially playing for about 30 million a year, which is much more inline with what I said the team could justify for the position given the salaries they have to play KCs supporting cast to over come his short comings. No QB is perfect, but the less that they can do on their own ( in Kirks case its his lack of extending plays, or making plays with his legs ) then the better OL, running game, and receivers they need to compete at a high level. Kirks elite passing abilities only go so far when he is a virtual statue otherwise.
He wont play for that little, but the story doesnt change, so if why keep paying him high money if you wont have the team around him to get to the next level, trade him or let him play it out and move on.
Allen entered the NFL in 2018. Same year Cousins came to Minnesota. Over that time....
Josh Allen: 18,397, 138 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 Rating, comebacks led by QB=11, game winning drives=15
Kirk Cousins: 20,934, 153 TDs, 50 INTs, 101.6, comebacks led by QB=14, game winning drives=16
Even if you’re nice and throw out Allen’s rookie year because he started slow, Cousins still wins. Allen is younger and a better runner, I'll give you that. But the level to which Viking fans under-appreciate their QB is at a comical level.
you are starting a team tomorrow, for the record, do you take Kirk Cousins @ 42 million, or Josh Allen @ 43 million? Personally I think 43 is to much for Allen, but he may not have reached his ceiling yet, pretty sure we know what we are going to get from KC.
I take Allen every day and twice on Sunday. He's younger, more mobile and he's a weapon on the ground. But to say that Cousins is "nowhere near" the level of Allen is just not true. As a passer, Cousins is actually better.
My fear is that we're going to move on from our very good QB and become the Commanders, who ditched their very good QB, and have since started 14 different QBs in 5 years.
I don't think we're that stupid though. I think we play hardball with KC, at least until the draft, then TRY to draft a QB we like. If we don't get one, we give Kirk what he wants. If we do, we let the '23 season determine the next move.
I think he actually looked worse last year than in the past, and that wasnt a stat thing, just wasnt delivering the ball with the same precision and timing as in the past, sure it may have been the new system, but he has been in so many new systems I have a hard time thinking that was the problem.
I seem to remember someone defending his 8-win prediction by saying that the expectations for Cousins in '22, given the new scheme, should be lowered--that we couldn't possibly see a fully effective Cousins until year two in the offense. And any kind of optimism from those predicting 10, 11 wins in year one was vomiting purple kool-aid. Well, here we are. Should we expect more from Cousins this year? Or was that just you trying to sound even more pessimistic than usual. :p
yes, lets pretend that 13 wins was really because our team won 13 games. reality is that over half those wins were a coin flip ending that could have just as easily went the other way.
you are right, nothing wrong with the O in any of those games.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ medaille said:
I just don’t think it makes sense for the team to address
Cousins contract before the draft. I
think Cousins has a lot of incentive to get locked up long term prior to the
draft and a lot of the urgency is from his camp. I think long term plans become a lot more
solid after we figure out how the draft goes and we can give him an extension
later this offseason if we want to. It
would be negligent for us to not have QB of the future as an option on the
table in the draft, and our plans probably vary based on if we get a QB we feel
like we can work with. I think what
should happen is that if we draft a QB we really like, we should let Kirk ride
his contract out, and if not we should look at giving him another 2 years
guaranteed and 2 years of low salary with incentives to get it higher if he
wants that and we can get out of if we need to.
I just don’t think there’s any way to guarantee him big QB money past 2025
as he’d be 38 in 2026.
If we needed the money to go all in this year, and we needed
to redo his contract to get the money, that’d be one thing, but I just don’t
think we can rebuild this roster that quickly.
I think we probably have to be looking at 2023 as year to build our
foundation on defense and 2024 as the year to be SB competitive.
At the bold, its intuitive and that might very well end-up the case...
We'll see if they shake things up with FA/Draft. I have no idea if that's how KOC/KAM are viewing things.
As Guru points out, the Vikings may be ok with some extension, but for how long may be at odds with what the KC camp wants.
$42mm/year seems about right for him.
42 M per year is right for KC? Josh Allen is only 43, Pat Mahomes is 45, Kirk is no where near the level of player that they are and he is getting old. I would say, assuming you are going to over pay, he is worth no more than the 37.5 avg that Carr is shown as getting, which isnt really even that high since only 60 million is guaranteed so he is essentially playing for about 30 million a year, which is much more inline with what I said the team could justify for the position given the salaries they have to play KCs supporting cast to over come his short comings. No QB is perfect, but the less that they can do on their own ( in Kirks case its his lack of extending plays, or making plays with his legs ) then the better OL, running game, and receivers they need to compete at a high level. Kirks elite passing abilities only go so far when he is a virtual statue otherwise.
He wont play for that little, but the story doesnt change, so if why keep paying him high money if you wont have the team around him to get to the next level, trade him or let him play it out and move on.
Allen entered the NFL in 2018. Same year Cousins came to Minnesota. Over that time....
Josh Allen: 18,397, 138 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 Rating, comebacks led by QB=11, game winning drives=15
Kirk Cousins: 20,934, 153 TDs, 50 INTs, 101.6, comebacks led by QB=14, game winning drives=16
Even if you’re nice and throw out Allen’s rookie year because he started slow, Cousins still wins. Allen is younger and a better runner, I'll give you that. But the level to which Viking fans under-appreciate their QB is at a comical level.
you are starting a team tomorrow, for the record, do you take Kirk Cousins @ 42 million, or Josh Allen @ 43 million? Personally I think 43 is to much for Allen, but he may not have reached his ceiling yet, pretty sure we know what we are going to get from KC.
I take Allen every day and twice on Sunday. He's younger, more mobile and he's a weapon on the ground. But to say that Cousins is "nowhere near" the level of Allen is just not true. As a passer, Cousins is actually better.
My fear is that we're going to move on from our very good QB and become the Commanders, who ditched their very good QB, and have since started 14 different QBs in 5 years.
I don't think we're that stupid though. I think we play hardball with KC, at least until the draft, then TRY to draft a QB we like. If we don't get one, we give Kirk what he wants. If we do, we let the '23 season determine the next move.
I think he actually looked worse last year than in the past, and that wasnt a stat thing, just wasnt delivering the ball with the same precision and timing as in the past, sure it may have been the new system, but he has been in so many new systems I have a hard time thinking that was the problem.
I seem to remember someone defending his 8-win prediction by saying that the expectations for Cousins in '22, given the new scheme, should be lowered--that we couldn't possibly see a fully effective Cousins until year two in the offense. And any kind of optimism from those predicting 10, 11 wins in year one was vomiting purple kool-aid. Well, here we are. Should we expect more from Cousins this year? Or was that just you trying to sound even more pessimistic than usual. :p
yes, lets pretend that 13 wins was really because our team won 13 games. reality is that over half those wins were a coin flip ending that could have just as easily went the other way.
you are right, nothing wrong with the O in any of those games.
No. Like the world champion Chiefs, whose offense and QB were crap against a handful of teams (like the Bills, Raiders, Colts and especially the Broncos, against whom Mahomes threw 3 picks), the Vikings offense wasn't great in every game. No offense is, especially when the running game isn't particularly effective and can't feed off of an even middling defense.
But how anyone can look at what we did last year and go "hey, gotta fix that QB" is just mind boggling to me.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
No. Like the world champion Chiefs, whose offense and QB were crap against a handful of teams (like the Bills, Raiders, Colts and especially the Broncos, against whom Mahomes threw 3 picks), the Vikings offense wasn't great in every game. No offense is, especially when the running game isn't particularly effective and can't feed off of an even middling defense.
But how anyone can look at what we did last year and go "hey, gotta fix that QB" is just mind boggling to me.
I agree that the defense was the main issue last season and it turned out to be the exact shit show I told everybody it would be under Donatell. However, that does not preclude the fact that we still have a major decision to make at QB that will affect the entire organization moving forward. If the Vikings are not willing to meet the guaranteed contract demands of Cousins and his agent (which I wouldn't either), then the wise thing to do would be to trade him now (especially if we can get a high draft pick) and just take our lumps this season. The Vikings are so fucking scared to make a move and get off the Cousins hostage train that it has hindered their ability to simply move forward. I think it has everything to do with the expectations of ownership, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news to the Wilf boys, but there is an excellent chance with or without Cousins that we finish behind the Lions and potentially even the Bears next year in the division. They are trending up while the Vikings are trending down and we need an influx of young talent to reboot this operation. The longer we hold on to just being "good" the longer we delay the inevitable.
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