Our OLine can't continue to let Kirk get hit as much as he did. Our OLine needs to do more to be able to rush when we need to. I'm skeptical that you are going to bring back all 5 OL as starters and get a dramatically different result. Bradbury's the obvious choice to change as he's been here the longest and you can't pay a ton for mediocrity. I think if you're not going to get better at the center position, it better be cheap. I do think you have to bring in competition for Ingram also as a minimum.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think it's borderline, I really do. One thing I do know is that you can't just declare you're going to upgrade the position and have it be so.
Couple things arguing for Bradbury is that his arrow is pointing up. Another is the continuity factor. We're constantly shifting that line when the thing they need the most is time together. It's still the youngest OL in the NFL. This is the first time we've had the opportunity to bring back the same five in about a decade or two. I wouldn't discount that.
Arguing against re-signing him is the money obviously. That and the fact that the biggest problem this year wasn't getting beaten physically, although that happened at times. It was mostly an inability to recognize and manage looping and stunting DTs and blitzes. That became all too easy for teams, especially the Giants. And I think that's Bradbury's responsibility more than anyone else.
If there's a smart, experienced journeyman center out there somewhere I'd be interested.
Its borderline but recency-bias may end up being the nail is his coffin as it relates to MN. He had a great season compared to prior years, but in the playoffs we has straight-up abused by Dexter Lawrence. Yes, an all-pro player who does this to quite a few interior lineman. But does that give you an urge to offer $10-12M annually?
Yes, I've seen Lawrence abuse All Pro centers. But my lasting impression was the many times Dexter started on Bradbury's right shoulder but ended up looping around and going over Cleveland's left shoulder. There was a lot of that. The Giants defense knew what we struggled with. I think many defenses did.
Bottom line is that the IOL has to improve. I'm just not certain if that's more likely to happen with another year together for the five, or bringing in a new center from God knows where, who might even be worse.
I keep thinking of Ethan Pocic, who was steaming-pile putrid his first three years, but is probably the top free agent center this year. Did he really improve that much? Or was it going from Seattle's crap line to lining up next to Joel Bitonio and the rest of Cleveland's very good line?
I agree with Geoff here, all we can go on is the track record, which is he's been terrible before this season where his play was improved, but when we got to the playoffs the same old Bradbury showed up and got dominated. I tend to believe he will always struggle holding up against bigger, stronger players in pass protection. Not someone I'd pay to extend and would rather take my chances in free agency or the draft to address the position.
Its a good draft class for centers, could be a consideration as well if you look at resource allocation.
I don't believe in draft classes anymore. LOL. This QB class was supposed to be generational but it's far from that.
Given our needs on defense...and at WR...and at QB...and the fact that we don't have a 2nd rounder and only four picks in the entire draft...it's super hard to justify drafting a center anywhere before day three. And there's no one on day three who would be an upgrade to Bradbury in 2023.
If we lose Bradbury to the money game, I would prefer going with Schlottmann over a rookie.
Thinking more along the lines of Schlottmann and then a rookie who he could potentially compete with. Keeps some depth in place as well.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think it's borderline, I really do. One thing I do know is that you can't just declare you're going to upgrade the position and have it be so.
Couple things arguing for Bradbury is that his arrow is pointing up. Another is the continuity factor. We're constantly shifting that line when the thing they need the most is time together. It's still the youngest OL in the NFL. This is the first time we've had the opportunity to bring back the same five in about a decade or two. I wouldn't discount that.
Arguing against re-signing him is the money obviously. That and the fact that the biggest problem this year wasn't getting beaten physically, although that happened at times. It was mostly an inability to recognize and manage looping and stunting DTs and blitzes. That became all too easy for teams, especially the Giants. And I think that's Bradbury's responsibility more than anyone else.
If there's a smart, experienced journeyman center out there somewhere I'd be interested.
Its borderline but recency-bias may end up being the nail is his coffin as it relates to MN. He had a great season compared to prior years, but in the playoffs we has straight-up abused by Dexter Lawrence. Yes, an all-pro player who does this to quite a few interior lineman. But does that give you an urge to offer $10-12M annually?
Yes, I've seen Lawrence abuse All Pro centers. But my lasting impression was the many times Dexter started on Bradbury's right shoulder but ended up looping around and going over Cleveland's left shoulder. There was a lot of that. The Giants defense knew what we struggled with. I think many defenses did.
Bottom line is that the IOL has to improve. I'm just not certain if that's more likely to happen with another year together for the five, or bringing in a new center from God knows where, who might even be worse.
I keep thinking of Ethan Pocic, who was steaming-pile putrid his first three years, but is probably the top free agent center this year. Did he really improve that much? Or was it going from Seattle's crap line to lining up next to Joel Bitonio and the rest of Cleveland's very good line?
I agree with Geoff here, all we can go on is the track record, which is he's been terrible before this season where his play was improved, but when we got to the playoffs the same old Bradbury showed up and got dominated. I tend to believe he will always struggle holding up against bigger, stronger players in pass protection. Not someone I'd pay to extend and would rather take my chances in free agency or the draft to address the position.
Its a good draft class for centers, could be a consideration as well if you look at resource allocation.
I don't believe in draft classes anymore. LOL. This QB class was supposed to be generational but it's far from that.
Given our needs on defense...and at WR...and at QB...and the fact that we don't have a 2nd rounder and only four picks in the entire draft...it's super hard to justify drafting a center anywhere before day three. And there's no one on day three who would be an upgrade to Bradbury in 2023.
If we lose Bradbury to the money game, I would prefer going with Schlottmann over a rookie.
Thinking more along the lines of Schlottmann and then a rookie who he could potentially compete with. Keeps some depth in place as well.
How would Reed look if he was given a full year to transition to the center position? I didnt get a look at him prior to joining the team, but he doesnt seem to lack the skill or strength once the ball is out of his hands. Is he a cheap option to compete with Schlottmann and use a draft pick elsewhere?
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think it's borderline, I really do. One thing I do know is that you can't just declare you're going to upgrade the position and have it be so.
Couple things arguing for Bradbury is that his arrow is pointing up. Another is the continuity factor. We're constantly shifting that line when the thing they need the most is time together. It's still the youngest OL in the NFL. This is the first time we've had the opportunity to bring back the same five in about a decade or two. I wouldn't discount that.
Arguing against re-signing him is the money obviously. That and the fact that the biggest problem this year wasn't getting beaten physically, although that happened at times. It was mostly an inability to recognize and manage looping and stunting DTs and blitzes. That became all too easy for teams, especially the Giants. And I think that's Bradbury's responsibility more than anyone else.
If there's a smart, experienced journeyman center out there somewhere I'd be interested.
Its borderline but recency-bias may end up being the nail is his coffin as it relates to MN. He had a great season compared to prior years, but in the playoffs we has straight-up abused by Dexter Lawrence. Yes, an all-pro player who does this to quite a few interior lineman. But does that give you an urge to offer $10-12M annually?
Yes, I've seen Lawrence abuse All Pro centers. But my lasting impression was the many times Dexter started on Bradbury's right shoulder but ended up looping around and going over Cleveland's left shoulder. There was a lot of that. The Giants defense knew what we struggled with. I think many defenses did.
Bottom line is that the IOL has to improve. I'm just not certain if that's more likely to happen with another year together for the five, or bringing in a new center from God knows where, who might even be worse.
I keep thinking of Ethan Pocic, who was steaming-pile putrid his first three years, but is probably the top free agent center this year. Did he really improve that much? Or was it going from Seattle's crap line to lining up next to Joel Bitonio and the rest of Cleveland's very good line?
I agree with Geoff here, all we can go on is the track record, which is he's been terrible before this season where his play was improved, but when we got to the playoffs the same old Bradbury showed up and got dominated. I tend to believe he will always struggle holding up against bigger, stronger players in pass protection. Not someone I'd pay to extend and would rather take my chances in free agency or the draft to address the position.
Its a good draft class for centers, could be a consideration as well if you look at resource allocation.
I don't believe in draft classes anymore. LOL. This QB class was supposed to be generational but it's far from that.
Given our needs on defense...and at WR...and at QB...and the fact that we don't have a 2nd rounder and only four picks in the entire draft...it's super hard to justify drafting a center anywhere before day three. And there's no one on day three who would be an upgrade to Bradbury in 2023.
If we lose Bradbury to the money game, I would prefer going with Schlottmann over a rookie.
Thinking more along the lines of Schlottmann and then a rookie who he could potentially compete with. Keeps some depth in place as well.
How would Reed look if he was given a full year to transition to the center position? I didnt get a look at him prior to joining the team, but he doesnt seem to lack the skill or strength once the ball is out of his hands. Is he a cheap option to compete with Schlottmann and use a draft pick elsewhere?
I have wondered about this too. Don't know his contract situation but could definitely be a good competition/backup option. Especially if they move on from Bradbury and want to go with Schlottmann.
Quote: @1VikesFan said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think it's borderline, I really do. One thing I do know is that you can't just declare you're going to upgrade the position and have it be so.
Couple things arguing for Bradbury is that his arrow is pointing up. Another is the continuity factor. We're constantly shifting that line when the thing they need the most is time together. It's still the youngest OL in the NFL. This is the first time we've had the opportunity to bring back the same five in about a decade or two. I wouldn't discount that.
Arguing against re-signing him is the money obviously. That and the fact that the biggest problem this year wasn't getting beaten physically, although that happened at times. It was mostly an inability to recognize and manage looping and stunting DTs and blitzes. That became all too easy for teams, especially the Giants. And I think that's Bradbury's responsibility more than anyone else.
If there's a smart, experienced journeyman center out there somewhere I'd be interested.
Its borderline but recency-bias may end up being the nail is his coffin as it relates to MN. He had a great season compared to prior years, but in the playoffs we has straight-up abused by Dexter Lawrence. Yes, an all-pro player who does this to quite a few interior lineman. But does that give you an urge to offer $10-12M annually?
Yes, I've seen Lawrence abuse All Pro centers. But my lasting impression was the many times Dexter started on Bradbury's right shoulder but ended up looping around and going over Cleveland's left shoulder. There was a lot of that. The Giants defense knew what we struggled with. I think many defenses did.
Bottom line is that the IOL has to improve. I'm just not certain if that's more likely to happen with another year together for the five, or bringing in a new center from God knows where, who might even be worse.
I keep thinking of Ethan Pocic, who was steaming-pile putrid his first three years, but is probably the top free agent center this year. Did he really improve that much? Or was it going from Seattle's crap line to lining up next to Joel Bitonio and the rest of Cleveland's very good line?
I agree with Geoff here, all we can go on is the track record, which is he's been terrible before this season where his play was improved, but when we got to the playoffs the same old Bradbury showed up and got dominated. I tend to believe he will always struggle holding up against bigger, stronger players in pass protection. Not someone I'd pay to extend and would rather take my chances in free agency or the draft to address the position.
Its a good draft class for centers, could be a consideration as well if you look at resource allocation.
I don't believe in draft classes anymore. LOL. This QB class was supposed to be generational but it's far from that.
Given our needs on defense...and at WR...and at QB...and the fact that we don't have a 2nd rounder and only four picks in the entire draft...it's super hard to justify drafting a center anywhere before day three. And there's no one on day three who would be an upgrade to Bradbury in 2023.
If we lose Bradbury to the money game, I would prefer going with Schlottmann over a rookie.
Thinking more along the lines of Schlottmann and then a rookie who he could potentially compete with. Keeps some depth in place as well.
How would Reed look if he was given a full year to transition to the center position? I didnt get a look at him prior to joining the team, but he doesnt seem to lack the skill or strength once the ball is out of his hands. Is he a cheap option to compete with Schlottmann and use a draft pick elsewhere?
I have wondered about this too. Don't know his contract situation but could definitely be a good competition/backup option. Especially if they move on from Bradbury and want to go with Schlottmann.
If you don't sign Bradbury, I think you pretty much have to keep Reed to back up Schlottmann. Sokol, whom the Vikings appear to like enough to keep around, might factor in as well.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ 1VikesFan said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think it's borderline, I really do. One thing I do know is that you can't just declare you're going to upgrade the position and have it be so.
Couple things arguing for Bradbury is that his arrow is pointing up. Another is the continuity factor. We're constantly shifting that line when the thing they need the most is time together. It's still the youngest OL in the NFL. This is the first time we've had the opportunity to bring back the same five in about a decade or two. I wouldn't discount that.
Arguing against re-signing him is the money obviously. That and the fact that the biggest problem this year wasn't getting beaten physically, although that happened at times. It was mostly an inability to recognize and manage looping and stunting DTs and blitzes. That became all too easy for teams, especially the Giants. And I think that's Bradbury's responsibility more than anyone else.
If there's a smart, experienced journeyman center out there somewhere I'd be interested.
Its borderline but recency-bias may end up being the nail is his coffin as it relates to MN. He had a great season compared to prior years, but in the playoffs we has straight-up abused by Dexter Lawrence. Yes, an all-pro player who does this to quite a few interior lineman. But does that give you an urge to offer $10-12M annually?
Yes, I've seen Lawrence abuse All Pro centers. But my lasting impression was the many times Dexter started on Bradbury's right shoulder but ended up looping around and going over Cleveland's left shoulder. There was a lot of that. The Giants defense knew what we struggled with. I think many defenses did.
Bottom line is that the IOL has to improve. I'm just not certain if that's more likely to happen with another year together for the five, or bringing in a new center from God knows where, who might even be worse.
I keep thinking of Ethan Pocic, who was steaming-pile putrid his first three years, but is probably the top free agent center this year. Did he really improve that much? Or was it going from Seattle's crap line to lining up next to Joel Bitonio and the rest of Cleveland's very good line?
I agree with Geoff here, all we can go on is the track record, which is he's been terrible before this season where his play was improved, but when we got to the playoffs the same old Bradbury showed up and got dominated. I tend to believe he will always struggle holding up against bigger, stronger players in pass protection. Not someone I'd pay to extend and would rather take my chances in free agency or the draft to address the position.
Its a good draft class for centers, could be a consideration as well if you look at resource allocation.
I don't believe in draft classes anymore. LOL. This QB class was supposed to be generational but it's far from that.
Given our needs on defense...and at WR...and at QB...and the fact that we don't have a 2nd rounder and only four picks in the entire draft...it's super hard to justify drafting a center anywhere before day three. And there's no one on day three who would be an upgrade to Bradbury in 2023.
If we lose Bradbury to the money game, I would prefer going with Schlottmann over a rookie.
Thinking more along the lines of Schlottmann and then a rookie who he could potentially compete with. Keeps some depth in place as well.
How would Reed look if he was given a full year to transition to the center position? I didnt get a look at him prior to joining the team, but he doesnt seem to lack the skill or strength once the ball is out of his hands. Is he a cheap option to compete with Schlottmann and use a draft pick elsewhere?
I have wondered about this too. Don't know his contract situation but could definitely be a good competition/backup option. Especially if they move on from Bradbury and want to go with Schlottmann.
If you don't sign Bradbury, I think you pretty much have to keep Reed to back up Schlottmann. Sokol, whom the Vikings appear to like enough to keep around, might factor in as well.
Nothing against Reed but I imagine he will be restructure/cut candidate. He's on a 2.75M cap hit with only $250K in dead money. So a quick way to free up $2.5M. Schlottman can likely be brought back on the vet minimum.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ 1VikesFan said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think it's borderline, I really do. One thing I do know is that you can't just declare you're going to upgrade the position and have it be so.
Couple things arguing for Bradbury is that his arrow is pointing up. Another is the continuity factor. We're constantly shifting that line when the thing they need the most is time together. It's still the youngest OL in the NFL. This is the first time we've had the opportunity to bring back the same five in about a decade or two. I wouldn't discount that.
Arguing against re-signing him is the money obviously. That and the fact that the biggest problem this year wasn't getting beaten physically, although that happened at times. It was mostly an inability to recognize and manage looping and stunting DTs and blitzes. That became all too easy for teams, especially the Giants. And I think that's Bradbury's responsibility more than anyone else.
If there's a smart, experienced journeyman center out there somewhere I'd be interested.
Its borderline but recency-bias may end up being the nail is his coffin as it relates to MN. He had a great season compared to prior years, but in the playoffs we has straight-up abused by Dexter Lawrence. Yes, an all-pro player who does this to quite a few interior lineman. But does that give you an urge to offer $10-12M annually?
Yes, I've seen Lawrence abuse All Pro centers. But my lasting impression was the many times Dexter started on Bradbury's right shoulder but ended up looping around and going over Cleveland's left shoulder. There was a lot of that. The Giants defense knew what we struggled with. I think many defenses did.
Bottom line is that the IOL has to improve. I'm just not certain if that's more likely to happen with another year together for the five, or bringing in a new center from God knows where, who might even be worse.
I keep thinking of Ethan Pocic, who was steaming-pile putrid his first three years, but is probably the top free agent center this year. Did he really improve that much? Or was it going from Seattle's crap line to lining up next to Joel Bitonio and the rest of Cleveland's very good line?
I agree with Geoff here, all we can go on is the track record, which is he's been terrible before this season where his play was improved, but when we got to the playoffs the same old Bradbury showed up and got dominated. I tend to believe he will always struggle holding up against bigger, stronger players in pass protection. Not someone I'd pay to extend and would rather take my chances in free agency or the draft to address the position.
Its a good draft class for centers, could be a consideration as well if you look at resource allocation.
I don't believe in draft classes anymore. LOL. This QB class was supposed to be generational but it's far from that.
Given our needs on defense...and at WR...and at QB...and the fact that we don't have a 2nd rounder and only four picks in the entire draft...it's super hard to justify drafting a center anywhere before day three. And there's no one on day three who would be an upgrade to Bradbury in 2023.
If we lose Bradbury to the money game, I would prefer going with Schlottmann over a rookie.
Thinking more along the lines of Schlottmann and then a rookie who he could potentially compete with. Keeps some depth in place as well.
How would Reed look if he was given a full year to transition to the center position? I didnt get a look at him prior to joining the team, but he doesnt seem to lack the skill or strength once the ball is out of his hands. Is he a cheap option to compete with Schlottmann and use a draft pick elsewhere?
I have wondered about this too. Don't know his contract situation but could definitely be a good competition/backup option. Especially if they move on from Bradbury and want to go with Schlottmann.
If you don't sign Bradbury, I think you pretty much have to keep Reed to back up Schlottmann. Sokol, whom the Vikings appear to like enough to keep around, might factor in as well.
Nothing against Reed but I imagine he will be restructure/cut candidate. He's on a 2.75M cap hit with only $250K in dead money. So a quick way to free up $2.5M. Schlottman can likely be brought back on the vet minimum.
He certainly is if they keep Bradbury. But if they don't, 2.5M seems not a lot to pay for a little veteran depth and peace of mind at a crucial position
Only way I let Bradbury go is if I can, with a moderate degree of certainty, upgrade the position. Because if we don't, if it actually gets worse, which is not just possible but likely with an internal backfill, what the hell are we doing?
Unsure what their contract costs would be but 3 Centers that I would look at if they actually hit free agency are:
Connor McGovern, NYJ (not to be confused with Conner McGovern, OG, Dallas)
Bradley Bozeman, Carolina
Ethan Pocic, Clev.
pretty sad that we have spent a mid first and a high third on the C position in the last 6 drafts and we still dont have the position fixed.
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