Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
Not a fan of subsidies.
I think people should choose which industries they want to personally
subsidize, rather than the government taking their money and deciding to give
their money to megacorporations that their friends and donors control.
If we’ve already decided on the government subsidizing
something, I would prefer they invest in things that lift up the people rather
than increasing corporate profits for companies that try to extend their own power
over the people. I think investing in
personal solar panel installations is a huge win for both the left and right,
as it increases green energy, but also makes more people independent of power
company shenanigans and makes them a producer and not a consumer. I don’t have much beef with our local power
providers, but you look at what can go wrong like in California, Texas, or
South Africa.
Subsidies should encourage distributed production where the
producers compete in a free market. It
shouldn’t just get dumped into too-big-to-fail corporations.
problem is, you still need a local power provider for when you are not generating enough of your own power, and the less you and your solar neighbors are buying, the less money they are making and it still costs them the same to maintain their part of the power grid. The only way I say solar or wind should be subsidized is if a location is 100% off grid and it makes more sense to keep it that way than to try and get them grid power, otherwise its just going to make everyone's base energy costs go up since the utilities wont have the profit from the KW sold to offset their operating costs.
I totally agree with you those are side effects of energy
independence. But that said, I think the
people of the US desperately need to ensure that the things they depend on for
survival are within their own control and not leveraged against them. Green energy is coming. Power plants are going to be shut down
regardless and replaced with solar and wind.
I think at this point, the choice is do you want to own them or do you
want the utility company to own them. I
do think there’s going to be a cost for maintaining the grid, and that should
be relatively stable and predictable, but regardless on whether you or the
company own the solar panels, some percentage of natural gas or nuclear plants
will have to be maintained and run at partial capacity.
I don’t think the option of just running with natural gas
plants is an option in this political climate.
I do like the idea of separating grid maintenance and power production. I think having one monopoly that is too big
to replace if they are underserving or overcharging their customers is ripe for
corruption. I think having multiple
providers for both grid maintenance and power generation is the best way for
ensuring low prices and higher quality through competition in the market.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
Plus, the roadside assistance angle: EV's wheels lock up when not running so any vehicle that shits the bed on the roadside will require a flatbed tow. And for the EV-only manufacturers that could be a LONG haul back to a service center compared to a dealership (most EV-only manufacturers have limited dealerships or none at all). $$$
Do all Teslas have Tow Mode?Yes, Tesla cars come with a purpose-built tow mode for when the going gets tough. This tow mode essentially disengages the parking brake when you want to manually push or haul your Tesla. Doing this allows the car to roll freely.
How do you keep a Tesla in neutral when towing?You can simply engage tow mode which can be done by going to Main Menu > Service > Towing (hit the brakes also) > Transport Mode. You can put the car out of neutral once you hit Park.
you can push or pull your Tesla when it has been put into tow mode. The reason is that the parking brake is no longer engaged. So, your Tesla car should be free to roll; just make sure that there’s no inclination when you put the towing mode on.
I know my 2014 Model S has a tow mode and I just used a couple weeks ago to roll onto a tow flatbed (as you point out). Does anyone tow without a flatbed anymore? I had a couple problems a few years back with a Ford Tauras and every time I called for a tow (maybe 3 times) a flatbed arrived.
Your other point is an issue. The closest Tesla service center is 105 miles from me. They will send out a "ranger" if it is something they can fix at your home but I needed a tow. Thank goodness for AAA. They covered up to 100 miles so my cost was minimal (turnpike tolls were more). Within that month my daughter locked her keys in the car. Then she needed a new battery delivered on site. Separate subject but I am a huge fan of AAA for the family with 4 drivers, 4 cars 
I notice everyone assumes that someone who buys a EV is earthy crunchy and wants to save the world from the carbon monsters Not me and others I have spoken with who own Tesla's. They are awesome cars. If you test drive they are amazing. The acceleration is second to none and I like the looks of my Model S (British racing Green). I love the way it drives, the tech, and of course saving money on gas. Lastly, I don't mind giving the oil/gas companies a little competition for once.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
Not a fan of subsidies.
I think people should choose which industries they want to personally
subsidize, rather than the government taking their money and deciding to give
their money to megacorporations that their friends and donors control.
If we’ve already decided on the government subsidizing
something, I would prefer they invest in things that lift up the people rather
than increasing corporate profits for companies that try to extend their own power
over the people. I think investing in
personal solar panel installations is a huge win for both the left and right,
as it increases green energy, but also makes more people independent of power
company shenanigans and makes them a producer and not a consumer. I don’t have much beef with our local power
providers, but you look at what can go wrong like in California, Texas, or
South Africa.
Subsidies should encourage distributed production where the
producers compete in a free market. It
shouldn’t just get dumped into too-big-to-fail corporations.
problem is, you still need a local power provider for when you are not generating enough of your own power, and the less you and your solar neighbors are buying, the less money they are making and it still costs them the same to maintain their part of the power grid. The only way I say solar or wind should be subsidized is if a location is 100% off grid and it makes more sense to keep it that way than to try and get them grid power, otherwise its just going to make everyone's base energy costs go up since the utilities wont have the profit from the KW sold to offset their operating costs.
I totally agree with you those are side effects of energy
independence. But that said, I think the
people of the US desperately need to ensure that the things they depend on for
survival are within their own control and not leveraged against them. Green energy is coming. Power plants are going to be shut down
regardless and replaced with solar and wind.
I think at this point, the choice is do you want to own them or do you
want the utility company to own them. I
do think there’s going to be a cost for maintaining the grid, and that should
be relatively stable and predictable, but regardless on whether you or the
company own the solar panels, some percentage of natural gas or nuclear plants
will have to be maintained and run at partial capacity.
I don’t think the option of just running with natural gas
plants is an option in this political climate.
I do like the idea of separating grid maintenance and power production. I think having one monopoly that is too big
to replace if they are underserving or overcharging their customers is ripe for
corruption. I think having multiple
providers for both grid maintenance and power generation is the best way for
ensuring low prices and higher quality through competition in the market.
if you want lower prices, then get rid of the green mandates, our power costs have about tripled since they started mandating that our REA buy "green" power. What sucks is we are already paying for mandated upgrades to the coal generation plant that made it in compliance with current emission standards, but now we have to pay for a % of higher priced power as well. The homeowner stuff isnt as critical on my utility as they have a policy here that they only have to pay at their wholesale rate, not the rate they charge so the incentives arent as great around me that would have a lot of people jumping on their own generation, however in those areas that require the utility to buy excess at their service rate, they are struggling to make it work, because when you are making excess, so is everyone else that has jumped on the green rebate train and suddenly nobody wants to buy power at those times, but when you arent making your solar power, then they are going to have to charge everyone a shit load more. I just dont see a good way to do a hybrid public/private electrical utility that is trying to do it largely with green solutions, or really any solution that has an uncontrolled output until battery tech comes along.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
...
...
if you want lower prices, then get rid of the green mandates, our power costs have about tripled since they started mandating that our REA buy "green" power. What sucks is we are already paying for mandated upgrades to the coal generation plant that made it in compliance with current emission standards, but now we have to pay for a % of higher priced power as well. The homeowner stuff isnt as critical on my utility as they have a policy here that they only have to pay at their wholesale rate, not the rate they charge so the incentives arent as great around me that would have a lot of people jumping on their own generation, however in those areas that require the utility to buy excess at their service rate, they are struggling to make it work, because when you are making excess, so is everyone else that has jumped on the green rebate train and suddenly nobody wants to buy power at those times, but when you arent making your solar power, then they are going to have to charge everyone a shit load more. I just dont see a good way to do a hybrid public/private electrical utility that is trying to do it largely with green solutions, or really any solution that has an uncontrolled output until battery tech comes along.
I think the argument you would get would be something like, “Maybe
you need to pay more for electricity to not destroy the planet for our children?” What would your response be to that?
Quote: @medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
...
...
if you want lower prices, then get rid of the green mandates, our power costs have about tripled since they started mandating that our REA buy "green" power. What sucks is we are already paying for mandated upgrades to the coal generation plant that made it in compliance with current emission standards, but now we have to pay for a % of higher priced power as well. The homeowner stuff isnt as critical on my utility as they have a policy here that they only have to pay at their wholesale rate, not the rate they charge so the incentives arent as great around me that would have a lot of people jumping on their own generation, however in those areas that require the utility to buy excess at their service rate, they are struggling to make it work, because when you are making excess, so is everyone else that has jumped on the green rebate train and suddenly nobody wants to buy power at those times, but when you arent making your solar power, then they are going to have to charge everyone a shit load more. I just dont see a good way to do a hybrid public/private electrical utility that is trying to do it largely with green solutions, or really any solution that has an uncontrolled output until battery tech comes along.
I think the argument you would get would be something like, “Maybe
you need to pay more for electricity to not destroy the planet for our children?” What would your response be to that?
if we were truly worried about our children we wouldnt be putting them into a unrecoverable debt with these unsustainable pipe dreams chasing "green" energy, and countless other things that our government was never intended to be funding with our tax dollars. maybe the smart investment would have been into storage technology instead of generation tech, that way we would have a way to actually become less dependent on non renewable energy as a future and not just as a feel good. a good example is the wind farm near me, they did all the work, and had actually started construction when they decided to scrap 25% of the towers, why... because they couldnt get rid of the electricity that would have been generated, they were so focused on the end result they never really bothered to see if the path they were half way down would actually get them there, just more cart ahead of the horse that has been part of this whole boondoggle of green tax spending.
just curious, how big of a generation system do you have, how much storage do you have and how often do you need to change those batteries? I used to sell some solar equipment to run remote radio equipment and the power demand was pretty low, but we still needed 2 pretty decent sized batteries for the necessary storage in our area and they typically were failing around 24-30 months. I have thought about looking into a small solar system as back up for my place ( just enough to run the lights and maybe the (gas) furnace, but I dont want to be replacing batteries that often... I already own 2 boats and a bunch of other shit that has batteries go dead every couple years.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ purplefaithful said:
I'm surprised they didnt get Ford and Volkswagen Motor Group on board.
That said, you are still going to need to charge at home minimally some of the time. Thats true for houses, townhomes, condos and rental apts. That is a big undertaking too - will take years to build that part of the infrastructure.
For the forseeable future, I would find it impossible to own an EV here in the midwest w/out a level 2 in our garage.
But this is still a big deal and the world cannot rely on Tesla Supercharger network alone
Many EVs come with a Level 1 trickle charger that does about 3-5 miles of range per hour (horrible) but there are subsidies both nationally and locally to have a Level 2 EV charger in your home. Even your local utility might have one for sale via them. You do need it either hardwired (best and safest) or a 240 outlet in your garage for it. The vast majority of people only travel 40 miles a day with their vehicles. 5 states have 85% of the EV market so a long way to go. Some car manufacturers (like Ford) include a nice Level 2 EV charger with a limited assortment of their vehicles. The issue is its really expensive to put in the wiring for an EV charger to many existing residences.
The issue right now for EV manufacturers is: they have a ton of stock.
It can be expensive, especially if you need a whole, new electrical box. Then you are looking at 5 figures easy.
Most of my clients are spending about $1500-$2k to get a 240 plumbed into their garage; add $699 for a juice box off of amazon or from auto mfgr on top if it.
Now the electricity suppliers are getting in on it too - Excel is big up here and they'll plumb a 240 in and let you rent the level 2 box. Program it to charge from 12:01 am to 559 am - when kWh are least expensive.
My breaker box is in my garage. Assuming its a standard plug it would just be the couple bucks a foot for the 10/3 or 8/3 depending on the amperage. If you need to run a line very far you can sub panel using #2 aluminum. Wouldn't be terrible on price.
Quote: @Zanary said:
I think this group is responding to the Ford alliance with Tesla, which likely will also encompass the VW/Audi group as well as Nissan, who seemed to be working its own deal as of last week.
Now we have to figure out WTF happened to Toyota. They've been my go to but certainly don't seem to be lining up on the EV front.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ purplefaithful said:
I'm surprised they didnt get Ford and Volkswagen Motor Group on board.
That said, you are still going to need to charge at home minimally some of the time. Thats true for houses, townhomes, condos and rental apts. That is a big undertaking too - will take years to build that part of the infrastructure.
For the forseeable future, I would find it impossible to own an EV here in the midwest w/out a level 2 in our garage.
But this is still a big deal and the world cannot rely on Tesla Supercharger network alone
Many EVs come with a Level 1 trickle charger that does about 3-5 miles of range per hour (horrible) but there are subsidies both nationally and locally to have a Level 2 EV charger in your home. Even your local utility might have one for sale via them. You do need it either hardwired (best and safest) or a 240 outlet in your garage for it. The vast majority of people only travel 40 miles a day with their vehicles. 5 states have 85% of the EV market so a long way to go. Some car manufacturers (like Ford) include a nice Level 2 EV charger with a limited assortment of their vehicles. The issue is its really expensive to put in the wiring for an EV charger to many existing residences.
The issue right now for EV manufacturers is: they have a ton of stock.
It can be expensive, especially if you need a whole, new electrical box. Then you are looking at 5 figures easy.
Most of my clients are spending about $1500-$2k to get a 240 plumbed into their garage; add $699 for a juice box off of amazon or from auto mfgr on top if it.
Now the electricity suppliers are getting in on it too - Excel is big up here and they'll plumb a 240 in and let you rent the level 2 box. Program it to charge from 12:01 am to 559 am - when kWh are least expensive.
My breaker box is in my garage. Assuming its a standard plug it would just be the couple bucks a foot for the 10/3 or 8/3 depending on the amperage. If you need to run a line very far you can sub panel using #2 aluminum. Wouldn't be terrible on price.
You'll need at least a 80 amp breaker to get you the full level 2 charge from a residential EV charger. You can certainly use something less than that but you will also get less AC to your EV.
And the EV charger is a bit of a misnomer, it doesn't 'charge' anything.....the car has the charger. You're just supplying the AC.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ purplefaithful said:
I'm surprised they didnt get Ford and Volkswagen Motor Group on board.
That said, you are still going to need to charge at home minimally some of the time. Thats true for houses, townhomes, condos and rental apts. That is a big undertaking too - will take years to build that part of the infrastructure.
For the forseeable future, I would find it impossible to own an EV here in the midwest w/out a level 2 in our garage.
But this is still a big deal and the world cannot rely on Tesla Supercharger network alone
Many EVs come with a Level 1 trickle charger that does about 3-5 miles of range per hour (horrible) but there are subsidies both nationally and locally to have a Level 2 EV charger in your home. Even your local utility might have one for sale via them. You do need it either hardwired (best and safest) or a 240 outlet in your garage for it. The vast majority of people only travel 40 miles a day with their vehicles. 5 states have 85% of the EV market so a long way to go. Some car manufacturers (like Ford) include a nice Level 2 EV charger with a limited assortment of their vehicles. The issue is its really expensive to put in the wiring for an EV charger to many existing residences.
The issue right now for EV manufacturers is: they have a ton of stock.
It can be expensive, especially if you need a whole, new electrical box. Then you are looking at 5 figures easy.
Most of my clients are spending about $1500-$2k to get a 240 plumbed into their garage; add $699 for a juice box off of amazon or from auto mfgr on top if it.
Now the electricity suppliers are getting in on it too - Excel is big up here and they'll plumb a 240 in and let you rent the level 2 box. Program it to charge from 12:01 am to 559 am - when kWh are least expensive.
My breaker box is in my garage. Assuming its a standard plug it would just be the couple bucks a foot for the 10/3 or 8/3 depending on the amperage. If you need to run a line very far you can sub panel using #2 aluminum. Wouldn't be terrible on price.
You'll need at least a 80 amp breaker to get you the full level 2 charge from a residential EV charger. You can certainly use something less than that but you will also get less AC to your EV.
And the EV charger is a bit of a misnomer, it doesn't 'charge' anything.....the car has the charger. You're just supplying the AC.
Like I said, my whole system cost me just under a grand. The at home charging station from Tesla was $500 and the electrician was $450. That was 5 years ago. I would say it is 100% necessary to have one because you don't want to supercharge every time. I just went on Amazon and saw the charger for $550. Consider adding another $1000-1300 to the cost of the car. So instead of buying a new F-150 (15Mpg) for $55-65K consider a Tesla! I am somewhat joking but it seems like everyone around drives a big brand-new loaded truck and most do not need it for any kind of work. But that is just my local observation I am sure most folks need the F-150 in the Midwest. You can find a used Tesla Model S with about 50K miles in the $30,000 range. Of course, you lose all the rebates etc. My Model S is running fine with 130K miles and only charges to 240 miles after over 9 years old. Original 265 back in 2014. The mileage thing is also something to consider or ask about. A tesla mile is not a mile. Things like speed (ahem..the reason I bought), cold weather and mountains effect the miles.
These are definitely not for everybody. Like I said I bought mine for reasons other than earthy-crunchy (but that is a side benefit).
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