Food for thought....seven of the final eight teams left in the playoffs run a base 4-3 defense. Get rid of Ed Donatell and get rid of this fucking scheme. Put your best players in positions that best utilize their strengths and abilities.
Quote: @TBro said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
Can't just shit can Ed without shit caning the scheme. Of the teams that run this scheme, none of them are successful. So running the same scheme with a different coach isn't likely to improve results. The same with bringing in players to better fit the scheme. At least a handful of teams primarily run this scheme each with their own set of players, they aren't successful. The scheme is flawed.
Ed needs to go and take the scheme out the door with him!
Can you be more specific on which scheme you are referring to? There are several variations of the 3-4. The one Donatell runs with the 2 deep Safety Shell is not common among 3-4 Teams. I believe the Vikings used the most 2 Deep Safety Shell formation of any team in the NFL. A lot of people have been referring to Ed's scheme as a permanent Prevent Defense which I agree with that description. You are correct it doesn't work and he shouldn't be back but these are the teams that use some variation of the 3-4. As of 2022, NFL teams that regularly incorporate the 3–4 defensive alignment scheme as a base include the Green Bay Packers, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Chargers, Seattle Seahawks, Pittsburgh Steelers, Baltimore Ravens, Atlanta Falcons, New York Giants, Minnesota Vikings, Miami Dolphins, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Denver Broncos, New England Patriots, Tennessee Titans, Jacksonville Jaguars and Arizona Cardinals.
Of those listed, I'm going to highlight a couple. First the Giants and Wink Martindale. He uses a 3-4 front, but he is anything but passive. His Blitz rate is the highest in the NFL and he is one of the most aggressive coordinators at attacking the QB which I don't have to remind anyone of fresh off the Vikings' loss. His version of the 3-4 looks nothing like Donatell's. Next up the Broncos who had the second highest rated defense in the NFL this year and were also 2nd for fewest points allowed. As we know, that wasn't the Vikings who had a negative points differential. Credit goes to Ejiro Evero the Broncos' DC who has used elements of other 3-4 schemes he's learned over the years while also sprinkling in his own elements to keep teams off balance and guessing what's coming. We were told that's what we would be getting with Donatell, but as we found out not all 3-4 schemes are the same and both KAM and KOC shoulder a lot of blame for letting the shit show that was our defense continue all season long until it cost us a playoff game. My point is that you can't lump 3-4 schemes together because they all have different variations and as I pointed out several teams are having success with their version of the scheme.
I was referring to the Fangio tree and version run by the Chargers, Packers, Seahawks, and Browns, as referenced in this video.
As you said, not all 3=4 defenses are the same. I just don't want to see this version with a different coach next year.
Quote: @jargomcfargo said:
@ TBro said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
Can't just shit can Ed without shit caning the scheme. Of the teams that run this scheme, none of them are successful. So running the same scheme with a different coach isn't likely to improve results. The same with bringing in players to better fit the scheme. At least a handful of teams primarily run this scheme each with their own set of players, they aren't successful. The scheme is flawed.
Ed needs to go and take the scheme out the door with him!
Can you be more specific on which scheme you are referring to? There are several variations of the 3-4. The one Donatell runs with the 2 deep Safety Shell is not common among 3-4 Teams. I believe the Vikings used the most 2 Deep Safety Shell formation of any team in the NFL. A lot of people have been referring to Ed's scheme as a permanent Prevent Defense which I agree with that description. You are correct it doesn't work and he shouldn't be back but these are the teams that use some variation of the 3-4. As of 2022, NFL teams that regularly incorporate the 3–4 defensive alignment scheme as a base include the Green Bay Packers, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Chargers, Seattle Seahawks, Pittsburgh Steelers, Baltimore Ravens, Atlanta Falcons, New York Giants, Minnesota Vikings, Miami Dolphins, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Denver Broncos, New England Patriots, Tennessee Titans, Jacksonville Jaguars and Arizona Cardinals.
Of those listed, I'm going to highlight a couple. First the Giants and Wink Martindale. He uses a 3-4 front, but he is anything but passive. His Blitz rate is the highest in the NFL and he is one of the most aggressive coordinators at attacking the QB which I don't have to remind anyone of fresh off the Vikings' loss. His version of the 3-4 looks nothing like Donatell's. Next up the Broncos who had the second highest rated defense in the NFL this year and were also 2nd for fewest points allowed. As we know, that wasn't the Vikings who had a negative points differential. Credit goes to Ejiro Evero the Broncos' DC who has used elements of other 3-4 schemes he's learned over the years while also sprinkling in his own elements to keep teams off balance and guessing what's coming. We were told that's what we would be getting with Donatell, but as we found out not all 3-4 schemes are the same and both KAM and KOC shoulder a lot of blame for letting the shit show that was our defense continue all season long until it cost us a playoff game. My point is that you can't lump 3-4 schemes together because they all have different variations and as I pointed out several teams are having success with their version of the scheme.
I was referring to the Fangio tree and version run by the Chargers, Packers, Seahawks, and Browns, as referenced in this video.
As you said, not all 3=4 defenses are the same. I just don't want to see this version with a different coach next year.
Totally agree.
Just my opinion on the 3-4;
- much like the Tampa-2, which was also once considered a revolutionary defense that caused offenses a lot of problems....it's been figured out. You aren't fooling anybody anymore. Quarterbacks and offenses are well versed in going against it and the "confusion" it once caused is no longer there.
- it can take years to get the right personnel to run it effectively. Teams like Pittsburgh, who have been running the scheme for 20 years is one thing, but taking a traditional 4-3 and making the switch, is a huge investment in time, teaching and personnel. The scheme never fit our best players on defense.
- KOC is trying to take everything from the Rams model and implement it in Minnesota, which was not the wisest choice. The mistake was further compounded by bringing in a man with a track record of failure as a defensive coordinator and was mistakenly given the credit for a Broncos defense run by Fangio the year prior.
- Again, 7 of 8 remaining teams in the playoffs run a base 4-3 with the Giants being the lone exception. The Giants ranked 26th in overall defense this season, despite having some really good pieces. So no shining example there.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
Just my opinion on the 3-4;
- much like the Tampa-2, which was also once considered a revolutionary defense that caused offenses a lot of problems....it's been figured out. You aren't fooling anybody anymore. Quarterbacks and offenses are well versed in going against it and the "confusion" it once caused is no longer there.
- it can take years to get the right personnel to run it effectively. Teams like Pittsburgh, who have been running the scheme for 20 years is one thing, but taking a traditional 4-3 and making the switch, is a huge investment in time, teaching and personnel. The scheme never fit our best players on defense.
- KOC is trying to take everything from the Rams model and implement it in Minnesota, which was not the wisest choice. The mistake was further compounded by bringing in a man with a track record of failure as a defensive coordinator and was mistakenly given the credit for a Broncos defense run by Fangio the year prior.
- Again, 7 of 8 remaining teams in the playoffs run a base 4-3 with the Giants being the lone exception. The Giants ranked 26th in overall defense this season, despite having some really good pieces. So no shining example there.
My biggest beef with coaches is that they are too stuck in their ways at times. They come in and want to change the scheme despite not having the players for it. By the time the players have been swapped out, their window is closing.
Now KOC did great with the offense, but he couldn't find a DC that ran something that fit the stars on the team (hunter, EK, Tomlinson, Smith)?
3-4 was our base defense, what percentage of our plays were actually in base…?
Quote: @1VikesFan said:
@ comet52 said:
@ StickyBun said:
Think he'd just say yes if it were yes. But it's a corporate-speak organization.
Why would he just say yes if he hasn't talked to him yet or in fact hasn't decided?
I want Donatell gone as much as anyone but no way would I want KOC telling the world his decision, if he's made one, if he hasn't told the man personally.
What would be the reason for not saying basically, "Yes he'll be here" if that were the case? Reading between the lines doesn't require complicated mental gymnastics. And lo and behold, my read was correct. Ed is gone.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ 1VikesFan said:
@ comet52 said:
@ StickyBun said:
Think he'd just say yes if it were yes. But it's a corporate-speak organization.
Why would he just say yes if he hasn't talked to him yet or in fact hasn't decided?
I want Donatell gone as much as anyone but no way would I want KOC telling the world his decision, if he's made one, if he hasn't told the man personally.
What would be the reason for not saying basically, "Yes he'll be here" if that were the case? Reading between the lines doesn't require complicated mental gymnastics. And lo and behold, my read was correct. Ed is gone.
My best guess, KOC and Donatell hadn't met yet and he wasn't going to tell the media his decision without talking to him
Quote: @1VikesFan said:
@ comet52 said:
@ 1VikesFan said:
@ comet52 said:
@ StickyBun said:
Think he'd just say yes if it were yes. But it's a corporate-speak organization.
Why would he just say yes if he hasn't talked to him yet or in fact hasn't decided?
I want Donatell gone as much as anyone but no way would I want KOC telling the world his decision, if he's made one, if he hasn't told the man personally.
What would be the reason for not saying basically, "Yes he'll be here" if that were the case? Reading between the lines doesn't require complicated mental gymnastics. And lo and behold, my read was correct. Ed is gone.
My best guess, KOC and Donatell hadn't met yet and he wasn't going to tell the media his decision without talking to him
I would make an educated guess and say the decision might have been made even prior to the Giants game.
But regardless, the timing was likely about not wanting to turn the end of year presser into "let's do a half hour on Ed Donatell." So you announce it the day after that. But the non-answer answer was a giveaway, at least to me.
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