Famous Viking # 64's...and there were some good ones...
•Mike Rabold (1961 - 1962)
•Milt Sunde (1964 - 1974)
•Grant Feasel (1984)
•Ted Million (1987)
•Mark Hanson (1987)
•Randall McDaniel (1988 - 1999)
•Anthony Herrera (2005 - 2011)
• Willie Beavers (2016 - 2017)
Quote: @Ralphie said:
Famous Viking # 64's...and there were some good ones...
•Mike Rabold (1961 - 1962)
•Milt Sunde (1964 - 1974)
•Grant Feasel (1984)
•Ted Million (1987)
•Mark Hanson (1987)
•Randall McDaniel (1988 - 1999)
•Anthony Herrera (2005 - 2011)
• Willie Beavers (2016 - 2017)
shoulda retired it after McDaniel...
I had no expectations whatsoever in free agency for the OL. The cap situation was not good and they have to have some hits in the draft. It is going to be interesting to see how Kubiak influences it.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ FSUVike said:
So.Kubiak and Dennison all the sudden don't know how to coach up.O-Linemen despite years of evidence to the contrary?
Or maybe you still believe it's just evil old Rick sitting in his ivory tower purposely trying to get himself and Zimmer fired.
Come on, I don't think even NJV thinks Rick is trying to get himself fired. But some people are very obsessive in resisting change and latch on to a minimal alternative and exaggerate it so they can continue their preferred method. So, yes, I do think Kubiak and Dennison can improve offensive linemen - but I fear that Spielman and Zimmer have convinced themselves that these new coaches are a panacea which will solve offensive problems so well that there is no need to rebalance team resources away from their dream of defensive perfection.
Kubiak and Dennison have a good track record for offensive coaching, and I hope Kline is someone they think can be improved. But I think coaching only goes so far and they are being asked to work with very moderate resources - while Zimmer has 8 defensive players averaging $10M each (cap space), including a 31-year-old DE who contributed little in 2018 and has viable young replacement options on the team.
So. Zimmer and Patterson suddenly don't know how to coach up defensive linemen - ones like Weatherly, Holmes, Bower and Johnson that they picked and have groomed for a couple years? Because it sure looks like they don't trust themselves.
This is why you and I debate well. You actually read my stance and the reasoning behind it and then respond with how your reasoning is different and why.
It is absolutely a valid concern that Rick and Mike look at Kubiak and Dennison and think 'hey, let's see what they can do with Collins, Isadora, Kline and some lower round picks from this draft while we spend the early picks on a DT, DE, and TE or WR.
And frankly, if that happens I sure as hell hope they both get fired after this season. Period.
The thing with Weatherly, Bower, Aruna, Ogdenibo or whatever the hell his name is that you mentioned about developing is that they were all super raw low round picks.
What I mean by that is they were uber-athletic but as green as it gets. Low floor high ceiling types that take longer to develop.
Isadora doesn't fit that mold. He was a steady college player who had a lot of snaps under his belt at Miami. What I would call a high floor low ceiling type. I believe Kubiak and Dennison can get production out of him quickly. And if they can't next season should be his last in a Vikings uniform.
Elf is also well-experienced and when you combine much better coaching with hopefully a return to 100% strength should have a big bounce back year.
Collins to me is more like Weatherly and Aruna. He had killer numbers at the Combine but really played all over the Line at TCU and had some consistency issues. I think he's a low floor high ceiling guy that hopefully grows even faster under Gary & Rick. I also expect improvement from O'Neill.
But again, you're 100% right that Spielman and Zimmer can't look at this Draft as an opportunity to add more Isadora/Collins types. They need to hit on a Guard or Tackle at either 18 or 36. Period. And they need to add competition in the 4th.
You also mentioned Jaleel Johnson and Jalyn Holmes. Don't want to talk about them as they make me mad. In both instances there were O-Linemen on the Board that projected as being much closer to being ready to start than those two.
A lot of us Draft Nerds look at Rounds 1-3 yielding Starters and it becomes far more hit and miss starting in the 4th. Not me. I expect more from 4th Round picks and these two have done very little and cost the team potential Starters if not reliable depth on the O-Line that could have been added instead. Grrrr!
Quote: @Vikergirl said:
He’s a walleye fisherman too! He’s certainly checking all the boxes...  B)
Quote: @AGRforever said:
Im me I've grown so cynical over what the Vikings do that I'm to the point where I check here daily and then I go about my life. There isn't a damn thing we can do other then bitch about it and that wont solve anything anyway. Thankfully we're what a month from the draft or so?
You act like it's some kind of game! B)
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ FSUVike said:
So.Kubiak and Dennison all the sudden don't know how to coach up.O-Linemen despite years of evidence to the contrary?
Or maybe you still believe it's just evil old Rick sitting in his ivory tower purposely trying to get himself and Zimmer fired.
Come on, I don't think even NJV thinks Rick is trying to get himself fired. But some people are very obsessive in resisting change and latch on to a minimal alternative and exaggerate it so they can continue their preferred method. So, yes, I do think Kubiak and Dennison can improve offensive linemen - but I fear that Spielman and Zimmer have convinced themselves that these new coaches are a panacea which will solve offensive problems so well that there is no need to rebalance team resources away from their dream of defensive perfection.
Kubiak and Dennison have a good track record for offensive coaching, and I hope Kline is someone they think can be improved. But I think coaching only goes so far and they are being asked to work with very moderate resources - while Zimmer has 8 defensive players averaging $10M each (cap space), including a 31-year-old DE who contributed little in 2018 and has viable young replacement options on the team.
So. Zimmer and Patterson suddenly don't know how to coach up defensive linemen - ones like Weatherly, Holmes, Bower and Johnson that they picked and have groomed for a couple years? Because it sure looks like they don't trust themselves.
This is why you and I debate well. You actually read my stance and the reasoning behind it and then respond with how your reasoning is different and why.
It is absolutely a valid concern that Rick and Mike look at Kubiak and Dennison and think 'hey, let's see what they can do with Collins, Isadora, Kline and some lower round picks from this draft while we spend the early picks on a DT, DE, and TE or WR.
And frankly, if that happens I sure as hell hope they both get fired after this season. Period.
The thing with Weatherly, Bower, Aruna, Ogdenibo or whatever the hell his name is that you mentioned about developing is that they were all super raw low round picks.
What I mean by that is they were uber-athletic but as green as it gets. Low floor high ceiling types that take longer to develop.
Isadora doesn't fit that mold. He was a steady college player who had a lot of snaps under his belt at Miami. What I would call a high floor low ceiling type. I believe Kubiak and Dennison can get production out of him quickly. And if they can't next season should be his last in a Vikings uniform.
Elf is also well-experienced and when you combine much better coaching with hopefully a return to 100% strength should have a big bounce back year.
Collins to me is more like Weatherly and Aruna. He had killer numbers at the Combine but really played all over the Line at TCU and had some consistency issues. I think he's a low floor high ceiling guy that hopefully grows even faster under Gary & Rick. I also expect improvement from O'Neill.
But again, you're 100% right that Spielman and Zimmer can't look at this Draft as an opportunity to add more Isadora/Collins types. They need to hit on a Guard or Tackle at either 18 or 36. Period. And they need to add competition in the 4th.
You also mentioned Jaleel Johnson and Jalyn Holmes. Don't want to talk about them as they make me mad. In both instances there were O-Linemen on the Board that projected as being much closer to being ready to start than those two.
A lot of us Draft Nerds look at Rounds 1-3 yielding Starters and it becomes far more hit and miss starting in the 4th. Not me. I expect more from 4th Round picks and these two have done very little and cost the team potential Starters if not reliable depth on the O-Line that could have been added instead. Grrrr!
Thanks, and can't disagree with your assessments of the players much. I'll quibble a bit about Weatherly because, though he fits the mold of uber-athletic and raw, he now has 3 years under his belt and had some quality starts last year, so the coaches need to acknowledge that he is working out, and encourage that growth, not stifle it. Give Weatherly a strong shot, maybe the inside track, to start opposite Hunter; that DE may be surrendering some snaps to let Barr rush, anyway. Tying up an extra $6.5M to give Zimmer a Griffen security blanket is unnecessary. I don't even insist they needed to sign another or better FA OL right now, just keep the cap space a bit healthier - then we're free to grab some guy cut by surprise in TC or an injury replacement.
I'm with you regarding round 4, especially since Johnson and Holmes were pretty high in that round, close to the top 100 picks overall. Not especially impressed with the value we received in picking Ben Gedeon either, if you really want to talk about round 4...
The best part about all of this is that it gives us fans something to haggle about. 
I love it!
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ StickyBun said:
Vikings better hope they don't have ONE injury on the O-line this season because the depth will be horrific. Everyone will also be learning a new zone scheme with new coaches. You can see how this is lining up, right?? Less than optimal would be highly diplomatic.
I feel this way too. I sure hope I'm being over dramatic. After 2016 and last year this team doesn't feel right. Though these are different times and circumstances. To me it feels like the 88 - 90 team. Jerry Burns had what seemed to be alot of talent that just never seemed to gel. Past that one miraculous run. We mortgaged everything for that one piece we felt was missing only to realize there was alot more holes then we thought. With a coach that openly questioned if he was getting through to the team. I am a bit concerned we slammed another window shut that wasn't as open as I believed.
You are. But so many Viking fans are like that. Why not just let it play out and see what we end up with? We're SO FAR away from the conclusion of this thing. And we still have several chips to play. Keep in mind that the Vikings are still more likely than not to trade Waynes. I sort of have a hunch they're waiting to see how Holton Hill's issue plays out before they pull the trigger on one among a few deals they have already negotiated. Probably won't happen until the draft. Does it come with a draft pick that we use on OL? Does it come with a player?
In either case, how far are we away from an improved offensive line?
LT - Reiff, D3
LG - D1, Collins
C - Elflein, Jones
RG - Kline, Isidora
RT - O'Neill, D3
Not that far. Compton is upgraded to a 1st round draft pick. Remmers is upgraded to Kline. O'Neill should be better in his 2nd season. Elflein should be better. Reiff's replacement is on the roster. Collins is depth with upside. And that's without adding ANY more free agents, a lot of whom typically come between the draft and training camp.... or what we might get for Waynes. Or what Kubes and Dennison can do....
I have every intention of letting it play out. You missed most of my point. Were not 2 of the last 3 seasons a huge disappointment? When I thought going in we could compete. So yeah I'm withholding my enthusiasm with this regime. At least Jerry won 2 playoff games in one season. We will see what the 4th offensive system brings now. I"ll be there.
Exactly. I think its hilarious to say 'lets see how things play out'....it worked so well last year. There's good reason to be highly skeptical about this offensive line's potential performance for 2019. If others want to not dwell on it or take an unsubstantiatedly positive outlook on it, more power to you. But signing Kline or drafting rookies isn't going to move the needle for 2019.
I think that is somewhat misguided. Did talent make the O-line successful or at least average during the 2017 season? Reiff - Easton - Elflein - Berger - Remmers were not a talented line, but they produced one of the better ground games in the league and managed to get by in pass protection. Case was part but not all of the equation. In 2018 the line was doomed from the start since Sparano put together the running game each week. The lack of a running game killed them all season and indirectly killed their ability to pass protect.
Dennison/Kubiak have a proven track record of putting together strong lines with the resources they are given. Regardless of talent I feel confident they will at minimum be able to scheme a good running game. That in itself will help. Assuming they use the draft to improve on whats currently have on the roster this line in 2019 will be more talented than what they had in 2017 and times better than 2016. But you don't know what you have until you give it time to gel.
It was an extremely difficult situation for the players and coaching staff to be put under. I actually wonder if Sparano had lived and kept the running game on track if that would have been the difference between DeFilippo being fired and becoming a Head Coach. There were other issues with his offense, but a decent running game could have covered those well enough.
I'm definitely very concerned about the OL at this point. Better coaching should help and Kubiak has a proven track record of providing a strong running game, but at the same time having no money to revamp the OL is a scary spot to be in. There's a chance to fill it out during the draft, but at the same time we have other needs too that weren't addressed due to the cap issues. We'll need to see if their decision to retain defensive starters at the expense of depth and other positions pays off.
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