Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Tyr said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
This has been a foregone, at least to me, conclusion for awhile now...bring on Wilson and my next moniker...
Agreed. If the Vikings were going to bring Barr back, they would've signed him months ago.
If they REALLY wanted to sign Barr, they would have been proactive like they were with Hunter.
i was thinking the same thing about Waynes recently... if they dont approach him this offseason I have to think that means they are willing to move on without him as well.
The Vikings should absolutely trade Waynes.
What was the point of drafting Hughes if your going to extend Waynes.
Watching a player leave in free agency and then hoping to get a compensatory pick (by not doing nothing yourself in free agency) is not a strategy that I am fond of.
All the talk about how Spielman loves 1st round picks and that 5th year has really not produced many extensions. Only Rhodes and Smith.
They have to at least see what another team would offer for Waynes. If you get a good offer then you probably move him. I just don't know if a team is going to give up a premium asset (pick) only to turn around and extend him.
Hughes was a pick to improve the slot where they really struggled at times in 2017. Of course Mac completely showed up this season and was arguably the best corner on the roster. His contract is also up after this coming season.
I think you need to figure out Mac's market rate as well. Coming off a good season and having a cap hit of $1M for a trading team, you might get more by trading him.
Their strategy of stockpiling high round CBs is likely something that I'm never going to like. It feels strange to draft guys like Waynes and Alexander presumably with the intent that they'll never see their second contract here. Corners are expensive, but are the cap savings of a guy like Hughes worth it if they keep taking away high picks from other positions every 1 or 2-years? Hughes seemed promising prior to tearing his ACL, but that doesn't justify the strategy to me. I do agree that Alexander was a question mark heading into last season, but there were more reasonable insurance plans they could have pursued. We did at least seem to get a hit with Holton Hill, but he's the first late round CB to show any promise under Zimmer in MN and even then he was a late round pick more due to concerns over character than ability (not that character issues are easy to manage). It's just strange that the focus is to keep drafting CBs high rather than try to develop affordable replacements in the mid to late rounds. They've had good CB play under Zimmer, but I feel like other positions have suffered because of this.
Is this an intentional strategy or just a sign of them valuing the quality of the prospect over the scale of the need? I'd hope that they won't consider corners in the first two rounds this year, but part of me is prepared that they'll pass over over good OL or LB talent for another CB. I think I'm joking about that, I hope.
I think there is some underestimation in how much the defense as a whole would suffer without good CB play. In today's NFL you need to rely so heavily on the secondary to slow down opposing offenses. Add in the fact that a lot of teams are running more 3WR sets and it has made a good nickel invaluable too. So I don't think the Vikings are off base investing high picks and money into their corners. Without them your other pieces don't work as well.
The question that needs to be asked is more along the lines of how sustainable it would be to pay 3 corners market rate. No current team has done that and it's really not feasible. So the Vikings need to pick two of Rhodes, Waynes, and Alexander to move forward with. My guess is they choose Rhodes/Waynes and retain Hughes as the slot guy and Holton hill as your 4th corner.
I saw you mentioned Hughes in the slot earlier but I am at a loss as to figuring out when he has actually, you know, ever played in the slot and showed he could be effective.
I do not know where he played at NC or at the junior college he attended but he played on the outside at UCF and looked good there this past season.
Counting on him to play in the slot reminds me of Josh Robinson.
Every time you bring this up I'm going to point out that very few FBS schools utilize CBs solely as Slot Corners AND Josh Robinson played Zone in college, not Man-to-Man. This point you keep trying to make is off-base. So why keep trotting it out?
I do not know what is up with you cause I rarely converse with you or here that much to be honest.
I did not know you were an authority of some sort.
I can tell you it does not matter what you say or how often cause I ain;t buying it.
The video shows him playing press, off, and not too much zone.
Either way he did a lot of coverages in college. Not just zone.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
This has been a foregone, at least to me, conclusion for awhile now...bring on Wilson and my next moniker...
Agreed. If the Vikings were going to bring Barr back, they would've signed him months ago.
If they REALLY wanted to sign Barr, they would have been proactive like they were with Hunter.
i was thinking the same thing about Waynes recently... if they dont approach him this offseason I have to think that means they are willing to move on without him as well.
The Vikings should absolutely trade Waynes.
What was the point of drafting Hughes if your going to extend Waynes.
Watching a player leave in free agency and then hoping to get a compensatory pick (by not doing nothing yourself in free agency) is not a strategy that I am fond of.
All the talk about how Spielman loves 1st round picks and that 5th year has really not produced many extensions. Only Rhodes and Smith.
They have to at least see what another team would offer for Waynes. If you get a good offer then you probably move him. I just don't know if a team is going to give up a premium asset (pick) only to turn around and extend him.
Hughes was a pick to improve the slot where they really struggled at times in 2017. Of course Mac completely showed up this season and was arguably the best corner on the roster. His contract is also up after this coming season.
I think you need to figure out Mac's market rate as well. Coming off a good season and having a cap hit of $1M for a trading team, you might get more by trading him.
If we trade Waynes for a 2nd, and put Hughes in his spot, didn't we just use a 1st to allow us to acquire a 2nd? He's going into his relatively expensive 5th year, then a free agent, so let's not fantasize about him bringing some bounty. But - trade Alexander (probably for less), give HIS job to Hughes, it's the same thing. Doesn't seem like progress in improving overall team talent.
Also, Hughes had a few splash plays - but CBs rarely produce immediately in Zimmer's defense, so what if Hughes struggles in 2019 or 2020? Since Alexander was "arguably the best corner on the roster", why are we thinking of trading him? We aren't a farm team - extend Alexander, let's keep our players who are improving and emerging, not bet on someone who played 4 games or a draft pick.
You're right, in a vacuum you would be trading a prior top 15 pick and have used an additional first to replace him to only get a 2nd round pick back.
But you also got 4 years of discounted CB play, would save $9M in 2019 cap space, and acquired another cost controllable asset rookie for another 4 years. Point being is that corner is a position of strength, why not even out the roster? Losing a corner and being able to add an O-lineman, LB, DT, etc.. plus a rookie would seemingly make the roster better if you make the correct choices.
If you have no intention of using the cap space it'd be a completely worthless endeavor.
So MarkSP18 you pretty much ignored my question. How many FBS schools recruit and train CBs to strictly play Slot?
Or asked a different way, how many of the 10 greatest Slot Corners also played that role in College? How many of the Top 20? 30?
You question Hughes and whether he could have become an effective Slot CB if Alexander hadn't progressed this last season. Did Alexander play Slot at Clemson? No. And yet improved unquestionably he did (straight up OG Yoda right there).
I would at least somewhat understand if you said the FO abandoned Mac at the Slot too early by burning 1 first round pick on his potential successor. Not sure I would agree with that take as he played awful late last year including the Playoffs.
Instead, you keep trotting out this whole 'nobody knows if he'd be good in the Slot because he didn't play there in college' shtick. At least 3 times now. And you keep referencing Robinson to somehow prove your point.
First, Robinson was a 3rd Round pick by an HC that played a different scheme. Second, no team always plays one coverage scheme all the time. So of course he played some Man. That wasn't the predominant scheme for that Defense that year.
But finally, again...How many schools feature Slot CBs? Show me, via facts, that many colleges have trained CBs to only play that role who produce multiple successful NFL Players and that UCF isn't one of them and I will eat all the crow you want.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
So MarkSP18 you pretty much ignored my question. How many FBS schools recruit and train CBs to strictly play Slot?
Or asked a different way, how many of the 10 greatest Slot Corners also played that role in College? How many of the Top 20? 30?
You question Hughes and whether he could have become an effective Slot CB if Alexander hadn't progressed this last season. Did Alexander play Slot at Clemson? No. And yet improved unquestionably he did (straight up OG Yoda right there).
I would at least somewhat understand if you said the FO abandoned Mac at the Slot too early by burning 1 first round pick on his potential successor. Not sure I would agree with that take as he played awful late last year including the Playoffs.
Instead, you keep trotting out this whole 'nobody knows if he'd be good in the Slot because he didn't play there in college' shtick. At least 3 times now. And you keep referencing Robinson to somehow prove your point.
First, Robinson was a 3rd Round pick by an HC that played a different scheme. Second, no team always plays one coverage scheme all the time. So of course he played some Man. That wasn't the predominant scheme for that Defense that year.
But finally, again...How many schools feature Slot CBs? Show me, via facts, that many colleges have trained CBs to only play that role who produce multiple successful NFL Players and that UCF isn't one of them and I will eat all the crow you want.
Listen dude. Don't know who you think you are talking to but I ain't showing you jack squat.
You are apparently the expert here so do your own research.
I did not believe they drafted Hughes to play in the slot. I think they drafted him to replace Waynes because they can't pay everybody top dollar.
The fact that he did not play much in the slot in college and Robinson was unsuccessful does not "prove" anything. It is just another fact that you apparently cannot accept. It is an example that gives me pause.
Nobody is asking you to agree.
Perhaps you should just ignore me as I will you.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
I would at least somewhat understand if you said the FO abandoned Mac at the Slot too early by burning 1 first round pick on his potential successor. Not sure I would agree with that take as he played awful late last year including the Playoffs.
.
I don't want to get in the middle of you two, but this is actually something I thought when they picked Hughes - have a bit more confidence in Alexander, two years removed from being proclaimed a draft steal and supposedly should have been a first-rounder. Let's further put it in the context of this team's preference for improving defense over offense: we watch offensive draftees like Kalil and Treadwell flail for multiple seasons without even putting a legit alternative on the roster, but if any area of the defense even shows a possible decline, the organization makes bolstering it a top priority.
However, I am also willing to concede that drafting Hughes might have been a wakeup-call for Alexander and a big reason he raised his performance significantly in 2019.
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