Quote: @MaroonBells said:
'An offensive line nightmare'Brian Mihalik discovered Jordan's pass-rushing prowess in painful fashion last week.
Mihalik, the Detroit Lions' backup tackle, had been in the game for just seven plays as a replacement for injured right tackle Ricky Wagner, and he made a crucial mistake. Mihalik decided to sit back and wait, allowing Jordan to get a full 5 yards of steam going before he put both hands in the middle of Mihalik's chest and shoved him hard once, then twice, launching the 6-foot-9, 315-pound Mihalik into Lions quarterback Matthew Stafford.
"I'm an offensive lineman, and that is an offensive line nightmare," Saints left tackle Terron Armstead said, shaking his head and smiling. "I'm telling you, that is a bad dream."
Sacking a quarterback with his own offensive lineman is an unbelievable display of power. A successful bull rush typically ends with the defender disengaging to wrap up the passer; few are capable of using the blocker as a projectile.
https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/...6317617154
Better than Jared Allen's sack of Eli Manning
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ greediron said:
@ pumpf said:
So... our best OL this year are Reiff (a first round pick, I believe), Elf (high 3rd round) and O'Neill (2nd round). Gee, I wonder if it's any coincidence that our best OL are the ones drafted higher? We spend so much draft capital- every year- on the defense... and all it would take is ONE high draft pick (top 3 rounds) each year: and we'd have a good OL. No, not every pick is going to work out- which is why you take one every year. They won't all become stars... but we've got a better chance of protecting Cousins and opening holes for Cook if we invest a little more draft capital into our OL.
Well there was that one guy that is in Carolina now...
Not saying you are wrong, but that one didn't work out.
All the more reason to keep drafting them "high" each year.
Aren't there 4th and later round Guards starting for like half the League? And how are Ragnow et al doing so far this year? Wasn't Jason Peters an UDFA? How far have all those high round picks taken the Cowboys?
There's multiple ways to build a Line. I like Philly's approach. Got a great, though injury-prone LT from another team (Peters). Their new LG is Isaac Seumalo, whom they drafted in the 3rd Round. Their Center was a 6th Round pick (Kelce). Their RG was signed away from Houston and was a 3rd Round pick (Brooks). And they picked their great RT in the 1st. There's also Vaitai, whom they picked in the 5th Round that plays almost as much LT as Peters.
So a 1st, 3rd and a 6th that they've invested plus 2 FAs. Or 3 since Wisniewski was their starter until this year. Plus a 5th in Vaitai.
Meanwhile, in the last two years Minnesota has spent a 2nd and a 3rd and signed a former 1st Round pick in Reiff. If one of Easton/Izzy/Collins holds down a Guard spot next year, which seems likely, and Rick either picks an OG in the 2nd or 3rd or signs a highly drafted Guard from another team Minnesota will have made very similar investments to what the Eagles FO has done.
And let's not discount the injury bug. If Easton were playing League Average Guard, which I think was a fair projection, and Elf hadn't missed the whole offseason you'd be looking at a very different group from the opening snap.
If O'Neil develops like we hope this team will only be shopping for a RG and better depth next year. And rightfully so.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ purplefaithful said:
. A source told KSTP-TV’s Darren Wolfson that a decision has not been made on whether O’Neill or Rashod Hill will start when Reiff comes back.
Hill has given up four sacks and 21 total pressures in 225 pass blocking snaps between right and left tackle. While he struggled last year in the postseason, Hill largely played well when called upon to start, giving up just one sack in 323 pass snaps during the regular season.
http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2018/1...gs-o-line/
About time they start thinking this way. I hear all the bullshit about 'we are always looking to improve' and 'we want the best guys out there'. Prove it and start O'Neill. Is he still learning? Of course. But his aptitude and incremental improvement has surprised everyone, so let the kid start and in 3-4 games, he'll surpass Hill's ability consistently and there'll be no looking back. The more the kid plays, the better he gets.
I doubt there's some sort of qAnon or illuminati reason why the team would start Hill over O'Neill. If they think O'Neill would be better, they'll start O'Neill. I think we all hope it's O'Neill because of his obvious upside and versatility as a downfield blocker or even a pass catcher, but let's not forget that whoever starts at RT, he has an intimate date with Cameron Jordan and his bull/swim move in 11 days.
It's really good to hear about O'Neill's work ethic. That bodes well for his upside.
Let's not forget Hill's nightmare game vs Jordan last year, he was absolutely abused by him especially in the second half.
Hill in two games gave up the most pressures of any playoff player.
Agree, give O'Neill a try he can't do worse against Jordan, at least I hope so 
Quote: @greediron said:
@ pumpf said:
So... our best OL this year are Reiff (a first round pick, I believe), Elf (high 3rd round) and O'Neill (2nd round). Gee, I wonder if it's any coincidence that our best OL are the ones drafted higher? We spend so much draft capital- every year- on the defense... and all it would take is ONE high draft pick (top 3 rounds) each year: and we'd have a good OL. No, not every pick is going to work out- which is why you take one every year. They won't all become stars... but we've got a better chance of protecting Cousins and opening holes for Cook if we invest a little more draft capital into our OL.
Well there was that one guy that is in Carolina now...
Not saying you are wrong, but that one didn't work out.
Right, Kalil was a high pick for the OL and didn't work out. Just like Sharrif Floyd was a high pick at DT who didn't work out (and before anyone says he had potential and was only held back by injury, Kalil would say the same of himself) - so no more high picks for the defensive line? Scott Crichton was a dud 3rd rounder, why would we come back and pick another DE in round 3 (Hunter) the following year? Mac Alexander has been pretty weak, why did we come back and pick another CB high?
We have had draft flops in the first 3 rounds, and the defensive side hasn't been immune. But Vikings have used only 4 picks in those rounds for OL in the past decade: Phil Loadholt, Matt Kalil, Pat Elflein, and Brian O'Neill. Looks like 75% success - and in truth, Kalil started 5 years at a difficult position, not at an elite level, but probably league average at LT. A lot of people would say 4 out of 4 picks became starters.
Meanwhile, day 3 picks for the OL in that period have been Chris DeGeare, DeMarcus Love, Brandon Fusco, Jeff Baca, Travis Bond, David Yankey, TJ Clemmings, Travis Bond, Austin Shepherd, Willie Beavers, Danny Isadora, and Colby Gossett. A total of 1 (Fusco) of 12 became reliable starting players, a rate of 8.3%. Sure, we still have hope for Isadora and Gossett, but we're starting Tom InCompton instead, so it's still just hope.
Sorry to rant, but...there really isn't any honest debate why the OL is our weakest unit, is there?
Quote: @minny65 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ purplefaithful said:
. A source told KSTP-TV’s Darren Wolfson that a decision has not been made on whether O’Neill or Rashod Hill will start when Reiff comes back.
Hill has given up four sacks and 21 total pressures in 225 pass blocking snaps between right and left tackle. While he struggled last year in the postseason, Hill largely played well when called upon to start, giving up just one sack in 323 pass snaps during the regular season.
http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2018/1...gs-o-line/
About time they start thinking this way. I hear all the bullshit about 'we are always looking to improve' and 'we want the best guys out there'. Prove it and start O'Neill. Is he still learning? Of course. But his aptitude and incremental improvement has surprised everyone, so let the kid start and in 3-4 games, he'll surpass Hill's ability consistently and there'll be no looking back. The more the kid plays, the better he gets.
I doubt there's some sort of qAnon or illuminati reason why the team would start Hill over O'Neill. If they think O'Neill would be better, they'll start O'Neill. I think we all hope it's O'Neill because of his obvious upside and versatility as a downfield blocker or even a pass catcher, but let's not forget that whoever starts at RT, he has an intimate date with Cameron Jordan and his bull/swim move in 11 days.
It's really good to hear about O'Neill's work ethic. That bodes well for his upside.
Let's not forget Hill's nightmare game vs Jordan last year, he was absolutely abused by him especially in the second half.
Hill in two games gave up the most pressures of any playoff player.
Agree, give O'Neill a try he can't do worse against Jordan, at least I hope so
How could I forget? But I'm also aware that Rashod Hill looked really good early on coming off the bench for Clemmings that day against Chicago. And like Hill at the end of '16, I just want us all to be aware that O'Neill hasn't faced anyone like Jordan yet. This is a guy who specializes in the very thing that O'Neill struggles with. So I see this as a great opportunity for O'Neill. And I tend to think he'll be ready. If he passes that test, then we can bring out the trumpets and confetti because that will mean that we just might have ourselves a real player.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ purplefaithful said:
. A source told KSTP-TV’s Darren Wolfson that a decision has not been made on whether O’Neill or Rashod Hill will start when Reiff comes back.
Hill has given up four sacks and 21 total pressures in 225 pass blocking snaps between right and left tackle. While he struggled last year in the postseason, Hill largely played well when called upon to start, giving up just one sack in 323 pass snaps during the regular season.
http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2018/1...gs-o-line/
About time they start thinking this way. I hear all the bullshit about 'we are always looking to improve' and 'we want the best guys out there'. Prove it and start O'Neill. Is he still learning? Of course. But his aptitude and incremental improvement has surprised everyone, so let the kid start and in 3-4 games, he'll surpass Hill's ability consistently and there'll be no looking back. The more the kid plays, the better he gets.
I doubt there's some sort of qAnon or illuminati reason why the team would start Hill over O'Neill. If they think O'Neill would be better, they'll start O'Neill. I think we all hope it's O'Neill because of his obvious upside and versatility as a downfield blocker or even a pass catcher, but let's not forget that whoever starts at RT, he has an intimate date with Cameron Jordan and his bull/swim move in 11 days.
It's really good to hear about O'Neill's work ethic. That bodes well for his upside.
Let's not forget Hill's nightmare game vs Jordan last year, he was absolutely abused by him especially in the second half.
Hill in two games gave up the most pressures of any playoff player.
Agree, give O'Neill a try he can't do worse against Jordan, at least I hope so
How could I forget? But I'm also aware that Rashod Hill looked really good early on coming off the bench for Clemmings that day against Chicago. And like Hill at the end of '16, I just want us all to be aware that O'Neill hasn't faced anyone like Jordan yet. This is a guy who specializes in the very thing that O'Neill struggles with. So I see this as a great opportunity for O'Neill. And I tend to think he'll be ready. If he passes that test, then we can bring out the trumpets and confetti because that will mean that we just might have ourselves a real player.
Hill also admitted that his eating habits led to him being gassed at the end of games and supposedly has changed those habits. Hill has been mostly solid IMO. Jordan makes lots of people look bad and having a rookie going up against him would give me some heartburn.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ pumpf said:
@ greediron said:
@ pumpf said:
So... our best OL this year are Reiff (a first round pick, I believe), Elf (high 3rd round) and O'Neill (2nd round). Gee, I wonder if it's any coincidence that our best OL are the ones drafted higher? We spend so much draft capital- every year- on the defense... and all it would take is ONE high draft pick (top 3 rounds) each year: and we'd have a good OL. No, not every pick is going to work out- which is why you take one every year. They won't all become stars... but we've got a better chance of protecting Cousins and opening holes for Cook if we invest a little more draft capital into our OL.
Well there was that one guy that is in Carolina now...
Not saying you are wrong, but that one didn't work out.
All the more reason to keep drafting them "high" each year.
Aren't there 4th and later round Guards starting for like half the League? And how are Ragnow et al doing so far this year? Wasn't Jason Peters an UDFA? How far have all those high round picks taken the Cowboys?
There's multiple ways to build a Line. I like Philly's approach. Got a great, though injury-prone LT from another team (Peters). Their new LG is Isaac Seumalo, whom they drafted in the 3rd Round. Their Center was a 6th Round pick (Kelce). Their RG was signed away from Houston and was a 3rd Round pick (Brooks). And they picked their great RT in the 1st. There's also Vaitai, whom they picked in the 5th Round that plays almost as much LT as Peters.
So a 1st, 3rd and a 6th that they've invested plus 2 FAs. Or 3 since Wisniewski was their starter until this year. Plus a 5th in Vaitai.
Meanwhile, in the last two years Minnesota has spent a 2nd and a 3rd and signed a former 1st Round pick in Reiff. If one of Easton/Izzy/Collins holds down a Guard spot next year, which seems likely, and Rick either picks an OG in the 2nd or 3rd or signs a highly drafted Guard from another team Minnesota will have made very similar investments to what the Eagles FO has done.
And let's not discount the injury bug. If Easton were playing League Average Guard, which I think was a fair projection, and Elf hadn't missed the whole offseason you'd be looking at a very different group from the opening snap.
If O'Neil develops like we hope this team will only be shopping for a RG and better depth next year. And rightfully so.
I have to agree. The key is to draft a starting RG. I'm sure they can get one, they will draft one in the first or second round. The rest of the guys can be competitive for a couple of years, but it doesn't seem like we have a starting RG on the roster right now.
Quote: @Ponifan said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ pumpf said:
@ greediron said:
@ pumpf said:
So... our best OL this year are Reiff (a first round pick, I believe), Elf (high 3rd round) and O'Neill (2nd round). Gee, I wonder if it's any coincidence that our best OL are the ones drafted higher? We spend so much draft capital- every year- on the defense... and all it would take is ONE high draft pick (top 3 rounds) each year: and we'd have a good OL. No, not every pick is going to work out- which is why you take one every year. They won't all become stars... but we've got a better chance of protecting Cousins and opening holes for Cook if we invest a little more draft capital into our OL.
Well there was that one guy that is in Carolina now...
Not saying you are wrong, but that one didn't work out.
All the more reason to keep drafting them "high" each year.
Aren't there 4th and later round Guards starting for like half the League? And how are Ragnow et al doing so far this year? Wasn't Jason Peters an UDFA? How far have all those high round picks taken the Cowboys?
There's multiple ways to build a Line. I like Philly's approach. Got a great, though injury-prone LT from another team (Peters). Their new LG is Isaac Seumalo, whom they drafted in the 3rd Round. Their Center was a 6th Round pick (Kelce). Their RG was signed away from Houston and was a 3rd Round pick (Brooks). And they picked their great RT in the 1st. There's also Vaitai, whom they picked in the 5th Round that plays almost as much LT as Peters.
So a 1st, 3rd and a 6th that they've invested plus 2 FAs. Or 3 since Wisniewski was their starter until this year. Plus a 5th in Vaitai.
Meanwhile, in the last two years Minnesota has spent a 2nd and a 3rd and signed a former 1st Round pick in Reiff. If one of Easton/Izzy/Collins holds down a Guard spot next year, which seems likely, and Rick either picks an OG in the 2nd or 3rd or signs a highly drafted Guard from another team Minnesota will have made very similar investments to what the Eagles FO has done.
And let's not discount the injury bug. If Easton were playing League Average Guard, which I think was a fair projection, and Elf hadn't missed the whole offseason you'd be looking at a very different group from the opening snap.
If O'Neil develops like we hope this team will only be shopping for a RG and better depth next year. And rightfully so.
I have to agree. The key is to draft a starting RG. I'm sure they can get one, they will draft one in the first or second round. The rest of the guys can be competitive for a couple of years, but it doesn't seem like we have a starting RG on the roster right now.
But LG has been a sucking wound since...Randall McDaniel?? OK, Steve Hutchinson, but he was injured part of 2010 and a lot of 2011, and after him we have gone through the horrible Charlie Johnson, moved Brandon Fusco from RG to LG (where he struggled), then Alex Boone (who struggled). Easton seemed to solve it but only for a year, and now Compton is continuing the tradition at LG.
I'm just not convinced Spielman will spend a high pick on an OG. Yesterday I cited 4 picks in rounds 1-3 for the past DECADE, and 3 were OTs and 1 C. They think they can get guards late, despite evidence to the contrary. Yes, FSU points out that other teams manage to get serviceable linemen in the late rounds, but the Vikings have been unable to, so accept that and take another approach. But I fear next spring Spielman will think that Nick Easton and Aviante Collins are coming back from injury and that will bolster the line plenty. But he counted on Fusco, Sullivan, and Loadholt to come back fully recovered in 2016 from injuries they suffered in 2015, and none of them did.
I think Spielman and Zimmer understand the lack of investment in draft capital on the OLine that has caused us to be in this mess, and I think they've shown a willingness to spend day 1 and 2 picks on OLine in the last 2 years. I trust that we will continue that trend until the issue is fixed. What I think has bit us though is that I think they've made some assumptions and overestimated the capability of older and injured veterans. I think we clearly had an increased risk on our OLine due to Easton and Elfleins injuries and Bergers retirement, and I think we should have put more emphasis on this in the offseason. Next year is an optimal year for adding more day 2 talent with having a full draft + having the extra 3rd.
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