Quote: @"Havoc1649" said:
The length of arms, unless they’re a T-Rex means absolutely nothing. The article provides several players that prove it a spurious relationship. It makes zero difference as to where they will line up. McDuffie rates out as a top notch draft prospect most likely going to play on the outside in the NFL.
This, like the length of offensive lineman’s arms are in many ways old wives tales. It’s old school coaches and evaluators nonsense. Under the old beliefs, guys like Joe Thomas or Jason Peters wouldn’t even have been on some draft boards at tackle because their arms were “too short”. Unless they are way outside the norm, plenty of great players come in under the “standard”. McDuffie will be fine. His 38.5” vertical should help make up for it.
What article?
Quote: @"Wetlander" said:
@"Havoc1649" said:
The length of arms, unless they’re a T-Rex means absolutely nothing. The article provides several players that prove it a spurious relationship. It makes zero difference as to where they will line up. McDuffie rates out as a top notch draft prospect most likely going to play on the outside in the NFL.
This, like the length of offensive lineman’s arms are in many ways old wives tales. It’s old school coaches and evaluators nonsense. Under the old beliefs, guys like Joe Thomas or Jason Peters wouldn’t even have been on some draft boards at tackle because their arms were “too short”. Unless they are way outside the norm, plenty of great players come in under the “standard”. McDuffie will be fine. His 38.5” vertical should help make up for it.
What article?
I was referring to your first post. Read so well it was like an article, nice work!
Quote: @"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Vanguard83" said:
sloths have arms twice as long as their legs, but I dont want one at corner.
gang, dont get caught up in combine numbers and 40 times. watch film.
That's exactly it. McDuffie is an exceptional talent. He may end up being the best corner from this draft. If his arm length were a problem, you'd see him struggle in press. He doesn't. He's great in press. In fact, he does everything pretty well: Inside, outside, man, zone, press, off, doesn't matter. And his instincts are off the charts. That bodes well for development, as does the fact that he watches film 4 hours a night.
Two, three years from now folks are going to wonder why this All Pro corner dropped so far. Same reason as Darelle Revis I suspect. Perception of size issues. "Perception" being the key word.
The difference between McDuffie's arm length and Derek Stingley Jr is 8/10ths of an inch....about the diameter of a nickel. The width of a wine bottle cork. That so many consider this a deal breaker for McDuffie is really kind of...edit...I won't go there.
It isn't an indictment (for me) on whether he will be a good NFL CB or not... I do like him as a prospewct. But with shorter arms than most CBs and being under 6 feet tall... most guys like that get moved into the slot when they get to the NFL. And those guys normally don't get taken in the first round (usually the back end like Hughes and Gladney), let alone at #12.
Look at Mac Alexander for a recent Vikings pick. 5 star recruit at Clemson, didn't give up a TD to anyone in college football in his last two years as a starter (?) and QBs completed like 29% of the balls thrown his way in his last college season. Reported film junkie, confident, fiery player/leader. Came into the NFL and he's been a slot guy his whole career. He has similar size, but longer arms than McDuffie.
Now I think McDuffie can have a better career than Mac, but he'll be defying odds to play on the outside AND become as good as you think he can be. I'm good if we take him in a trade back scenario, but not at 12.
No, McDuffie is an outside guy. He's always been an outside guy. Can he play in the slot? Of course, you could put him there and I'm sure he'll be great. But you'd be wasting him IMO. He's a lot more Jaire Alexander than Mac Alexander, which is a weird comp.
Another thing about size, and I don't know why no one's talking about this, but NFL receivers are getting smaller. In the late 90s into the middle 00s, you had enormous receivers like Moss, Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc. So teams started drafting bigger corners to keep up. I think a lot of NFL fans are still stuck in that mode.
But right now the best receivers in the NFL--Davante, Diggs, Kupp, JJ, Chase, Deebo, Lamb, Tyreek--are all just average size guys around 6-0, 200 lbs give or take. But they have incredible quickness and they'll break your ankles with the routes they run. They're better fits for modern offenses.
And so these monster corners like Xavier Rhodes can't hang with them, and they're becoming a thing of the past. If you look at who the best corners are in the NFL right now, they pretty much match the receivers in terms of size.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Vanguard83" said:
sloths have arms twice as long as their legs, but I dont want one at corner.
gang, dont get caught up in combine numbers and 40 times. watch film.
That's exactly it. McDuffie is an exceptional talent. He may end up being the best corner from this draft. If his arm length were a problem, you'd see him struggle in press. He doesn't. He's great in press. In fact, he does everything pretty well: Inside, outside, man, zone, press, off, doesn't matter. And his instincts are off the charts. That bodes well for development, as does the fact that he watches film 4 hours a night.
Two, three years from now folks are going to wonder why this All Pro corner dropped so far. Same reason as Darelle Revis I suspect. Perception of size issues. "Perception" being the key word.
The difference between McDuffie's arm length and Derek Stingley Jr is 8/10ths of an inch....about the diameter of a nickel. The width of a wine bottle cork. That so many consider this a deal breaker for McDuffie is really kind of...edit...I won't go there.
It isn't an indictment (for me) on whether he will be a good NFL CB or not... I do like him as a prospewct. But with shorter arms than most CBs and being under 6 feet tall... most guys like that get moved into the slot when they get to the NFL. And those guys normally don't get taken in the first round (usually the back end like Hughes and Gladney), let alone at #12.
Look at Mac Alexander for a recent Vikings pick. 5 star recruit at Clemson, didn't give up a TD to anyone in college football in his last two years as a starter (?) and QBs completed like 29% of the balls thrown his way in his last college season. Reported film junkie, confident, fiery player/leader. Came into the NFL and he's been a slot guy his whole career. He has similar size, but longer arms than McDuffie.
Now I think McDuffie can have a better career than Mac, but he'll be defying odds to play on the outside AND become as good as you think he can be. I'm good if we take him in a trade back scenario, but not at 12.
No, McDuffie is an outside guy. He's always been an outside guy. Can he play in the slot? Of course, you could put him there and I'm sure he'll be great. But you'd be wasting him IMO. He's a lot more Jaire Alexander than Mac Alexander, which is a weird comp.
Another thing about size, and I don't know why no one's talking about this, but NFL receivers are getting smaller. In the late 90s into the middle 00s, you had enormous receivers like Moss, Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc. So teams started drafting bigger corners to keep up. I think a lot of NFL fans are still stuck in that mode.
But right now the best receivers in the NFL--Davante, Diggs, Kupp, JJ, Chase, Deebo, Lamb, Tyreek--are all just average size guys around 6-0, 200 lbs give or take. But they have incredible quickness and they'll break your ankles with the routes they run. They're better fits for modern offenses.
And so these monster corners like Xavier Rhodes can't hang with them, and they're becoming a thing of the past. If you look at who the best corners are in the NFL right now, they pretty much match the receivers in terms of size.
I only pointed out Mac because he was a film junkie and fiery leader along with being a very good outside CB in college like McDuffie.
If the new coaching staff plans to play him outside, then great. I can get on board with taking him in the first round. If they play him in the slot like the previous coaching staff did with Mac, Gladney, and Hughes (all similar size to McDuffie) then I don't see any value in drafting a slot CB at 12.
This is a deep CB class, I don't think we need to force a CB pick at 12 unless Sauce or Stingley are available (not likely).
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Vanguard83" said:
sloths have arms twice as long as their legs, but I dont want one at corner.
gang, dont get caught up in combine numbers and 40 times. watch film.
That's exactly it. McDuffie is an exceptional talent. He may end up being the best corner from this draft. If his arm length were a problem, you'd see him struggle in press. He doesn't. He's great in press. In fact, he does everything pretty well: Inside, outside, man, zone, press, off, doesn't matter. And his instincts are off the charts. That bodes well for development, as does the fact that he watches film 4 hours a night.
Two, three years from now folks are going to wonder why this All Pro corner dropped so far. Same reason as Darelle Revis I suspect. Perception of size issues. "Perception" being the key word.
The difference between McDuffie's arm length and Derek Stingley Jr is 8/10ths of an inch....about the diameter of a nickel. The width of a wine bottle cork. That so many consider this a deal breaker for McDuffie is really kind of...edit...I won't go there.
It isn't an indictment (for me) on whether he will be a good NFL CB or not... I do like him as a prospewct. But with shorter arms than most CBs and being under 6 feet tall... most guys like that get moved into the slot when they get to the NFL. And those guys normally don't get taken in the first round (usually the back end like Hughes and Gladney), let alone at #12.
Look at Mac Alexander for a recent Vikings pick. 5 star recruit at Clemson, didn't give up a TD to anyone in college football in his last two years as a starter (?) and QBs completed like 29% of the balls thrown his way in his last college season. Reported film junkie, confident, fiery player/leader. Came into the NFL and he's been a slot guy his whole career. He has similar size, but longer arms than McDuffie.
Now I think McDuffie can have a better career than Mac, but he'll be defying odds to play on the outside AND become as good as you think he can be. I'm good if we take him in a trade back scenario, but not at 12.
No, McDuffie is an outside guy. He's always been an outside guy. Can he play in the slot? Of course, you could put him there and I'm sure he'll be great. But you'd be wasting him IMO. He's a lot more Jaire Alexander than Mac Alexander, which is a weird comp.
Another thing about size, and I don't know why no one's talking about this, but NFL receivers are getting smaller. In the late 90s into the middle 00s, you had enormous receivers like Moss, Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc. So teams started drafting bigger corners to keep up. I think a lot of NFL fans are still stuck in that mode.
But right now the best receivers in the NFL--Davante, Diggs, Kupp, JJ, Chase, Deebo, Lamb, Tyreek--are all just average size guys around 6-0, 200 lbs give or take. But they have incredible quickness and they'll break your ankles with the routes they run. They're better fits for modern offenses.
And so these monster corners like Xavier Rhodes can't hang with them, and they're becoming a thing of the past. If you look at who the best corners are in the NFL right now, they pretty much match the receivers in terms of size.
Even if the new era of receivers arent 6'3 or 6'4, you still want your CB's to have long arms with how quick receivers are out of their break. The conversation isn't is McDuffie big enough, because he's just fine, it's that he measured out to be in a bucket where history has said it's tough to make it as an outside corner. Jaire has long arms and Revis had insanely long arms so IDK if we can use them as comps. McDuffie would be a great slot CB, but we aren't drafting a slot CB at 12. As mentioned before, Trent may be the guy that proves the stat wrong, but recent history says he faces an uphill battle if he's an outside guy.
Quote: @"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Vanguard83" said:
sloths have arms twice as long as their legs, but I dont want one at corner.
gang, dont get caught up in combine numbers and 40 times. watch film.
That's exactly it. McDuffie is an exceptional talent. He may end up being the best corner from this draft. If his arm length were a problem, you'd see him struggle in press. He doesn't. He's great in press. In fact, he does everything pretty well: Inside, outside, man, zone, press, off, doesn't matter. And his instincts are off the charts. That bodes well for development, as does the fact that he watches film 4 hours a night.
Two, three years from now folks are going to wonder why this All Pro corner dropped so far. Same reason as Darelle Revis I suspect. Perception of size issues. "Perception" being the key word.
The difference between McDuffie's arm length and Derek Stingley Jr is 8/10ths of an inch....about the diameter of a nickel. The width of a wine bottle cork. That so many consider this a deal breaker for McDuffie is really kind of...edit...I won't go there.
It isn't an indictment (for me) on whether he will be a good NFL CB or not... I do like him as a prospewct. But with shorter arms than most CBs and being under 6 feet tall... most guys like that get moved into the slot when they get to the NFL. And those guys normally don't get taken in the first round (usually the back end like Hughes and Gladney), let alone at #12.
Look at Mac Alexander for a recent Vikings pick. 5 star recruit at Clemson, didn't give up a TD to anyone in college football in his last two years as a starter (?) and QBs completed like 29% of the balls thrown his way in his last college season. Reported film junkie, confident, fiery player/leader. Came into the NFL and he's been a slot guy his whole career. He has similar size, but longer arms than McDuffie.
Now I think McDuffie can have a better career than Mac, but he'll be defying odds to play on the outside AND become as good as you think he can be. I'm good if we take him in a trade back scenario, but not at 12.
No, McDuffie is an outside guy. He's always been an outside guy. Can he play in the slot? Of course, you could put him there and I'm sure he'll be great. But you'd be wasting him IMO. He's a lot more Jaire Alexander than Mac Alexander, which is a weird comp.
Another thing about size, and I don't know why no one's talking about this, but NFL receivers are getting smaller. In the late 90s into the middle 00s, you had enormous receivers like Moss, Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc. So teams started drafting bigger corners to keep up. I think a lot of NFL fans are still stuck in that mode.
But right now the best receivers in the NFL--Davante, Diggs, Kupp, JJ, Chase, Deebo, Lamb, Tyreek--are all just average size guys around 6-0, 200 lbs give or take. But they have incredible quickness and they'll break your ankles with the routes they run. They're better fits for modern offenses.
And so these monster corners like Xavier Rhodes can't hang with them, and they're becoming a thing of the past. If you look at who the best corners are in the NFL right now, they pretty much match the receivers in terms of size.
I only pointed out Mac because he was a film junkie and fiery leader along with being a very good outside CB in college like McDuffie.
If the new coaching staff plans to play him outside, then great. I can get on board with taking him in the first round. If they play him in the slot like the previous coaching staff did with Mac, Gladney, and Hughes (all similar size to McDuffie) then I don't see any value in drafting a slot CB at 12.
This is a deep CB class, I don't think we need to force a CB pick at 12 unless Sauce or Stingley are available (not likely).
I don't necessarily disagree. I'm almost always in favor of a trade down, and I would be this year, too. Even if McDuffie's on the board at #12. We need to pull 2 or 3 starters from this draft. And I like some of the lower ranked corners like Booth and McCreary.
I will say this, though. Don't be surprised if McDuffie goes ahead of Stingley. And I wouldn't be TOO surprised to see Stingley drop well past 12.
Quote: @"Hawkvike25" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Vanguard83" said:
sloths have arms twice as long as their legs, but I dont want one at corner.
gang, dont get caught up in combine numbers and 40 times. watch film.
That's exactly it. McDuffie is an exceptional talent. He may end up being the best corner from this draft. If his arm length were a problem, you'd see him struggle in press. He doesn't. He's great in press. In fact, he does everything pretty well: Inside, outside, man, zone, press, off, doesn't matter. And his instincts are off the charts. That bodes well for development, as does the fact that he watches film 4 hours a night.
Two, three years from now folks are going to wonder why this All Pro corner dropped so far. Same reason as Darelle Revis I suspect. Perception of size issues. "Perception" being the key word.
The difference between McDuffie's arm length and Derek Stingley Jr is 8/10ths of an inch....about the diameter of a nickel. The width of a wine bottle cork. That so many consider this a deal breaker for McDuffie is really kind of...edit...I won't go there.
It isn't an indictment (for me) on whether he will be a good NFL CB or not... I do like him as a prospewct. But with shorter arms than most CBs and being under 6 feet tall... most guys like that get moved into the slot when they get to the NFL. And those guys normally don't get taken in the first round (usually the back end like Hughes and Gladney), let alone at #12.
Look at Mac Alexander for a recent Vikings pick. 5 star recruit at Clemson, didn't give up a TD to anyone in college football in his last two years as a starter (?) and QBs completed like 29% of the balls thrown his way in his last college season. Reported film junkie, confident, fiery player/leader. Came into the NFL and he's been a slot guy his whole career. He has similar size, but longer arms than McDuffie.
Now I think McDuffie can have a better career than Mac, but he'll be defying odds to play on the outside AND become as good as you think he can be. I'm good if we take him in a trade back scenario, but not at 12.
No, McDuffie is an outside guy. He's always been an outside guy. Can he play in the slot? Of course, you could put him there and I'm sure he'll be great. But you'd be wasting him IMO. He's a lot more Jaire Alexander than Mac Alexander, which is a weird comp.
Another thing about size, and I don't know why no one's talking about this, but NFL receivers are getting smaller. In the late 90s into the middle 00s, you had enormous receivers like Moss, Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc. So teams started drafting bigger corners to keep up. I think a lot of NFL fans are still stuck in that mode.
But right now the best receivers in the NFL--Davante, Diggs, Kupp, JJ, Chase, Deebo, Lamb, Tyreek--are all just average size guys around 6-0, 200 lbs give or take. But they have incredible quickness and they'll break your ankles with the routes they run. They're better fits for modern offenses.
And so these monster corners like Xavier Rhodes can't hang with them, and they're becoming a thing of the past. If you look at who the best corners are in the NFL right now, they pretty much match the receivers in terms of size.
Even if the new era of receivers arent 6'3 or 6'4, you still want your CB's to have long arms with how quick receivers are out of their break. The conversation isn't is McDuffie big enough, because he's just fine, it's that he measured out to be in a bucket where history has said it's tough to make it as an outside corner. Jaire has long arms and Revis had insanely long arms so IDK if we can use them as comps. McDuffie would be a great slot CB, but we aren't drafting a slot CB at 12. As mentioned before, Trent may be the guy that proves the stat wrong, but recent history says he faces an uphill battle if he's an outside guy.
Long arms are a good thing, especially in press. But it's WAY overrated compared to far more important things like an ability to go from man to zone, press to off seamlessly, speed, change of direction, tackling ability, etc.
I like McDuffie and his skill set is there. I like Gardner though and wish we could nab him.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"Hawkvike25" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Vanguard83" said:
sloths have arms twice as long as their legs, but I dont want one at corner.
gang, dont get caught up in combine numbers and 40 times. watch film.
That's exactly it. McDuffie is an exceptional talent. He may end up being the best corner from this draft. If his arm length were a problem, you'd see him struggle in press. He doesn't. He's great in press. In fact, he does everything pretty well: Inside, outside, man, zone, press, off, doesn't matter. And his instincts are off the charts. That bodes well for development, as does the fact that he watches film 4 hours a night.
Two, three years from now folks are going to wonder why this All Pro corner dropped so far. Same reason as Darelle Revis I suspect. Perception of size issues. "Perception" being the key word.
The difference between McDuffie's arm length and Derek Stingley Jr is 8/10ths of an inch....about the diameter of a nickel. The width of a wine bottle cork. That so many consider this a deal breaker for McDuffie is really kind of...edit...I won't go there.
It isn't an indictment (for me) on whether he will be a good NFL CB or not... I do like him as a prospewct. But with shorter arms than most CBs and being under 6 feet tall... most guys like that get moved into the slot when they get to the NFL. And those guys normally don't get taken in the first round (usually the back end like Hughes and Gladney), let alone at #12.
Look at Mac Alexander for a recent Vikings pick. 5 star recruit at Clemson, didn't give up a TD to anyone in college football in his last two years as a starter (?) and QBs completed like 29% of the balls thrown his way in his last college season. Reported film junkie, confident, fiery player/leader. Came into the NFL and he's been a slot guy his whole career. He has similar size, but longer arms than McDuffie.
Now I think McDuffie can have a better career than Mac, but he'll be defying odds to play on the outside AND become as good as you think he can be. I'm good if we take him in a trade back scenario, but not at 12.
No, McDuffie is an outside guy. He's always been an outside guy. Can he play in the slot? Of course, you could put him there and I'm sure he'll be great. But you'd be wasting him IMO. He's a lot more Jaire Alexander than Mac Alexander, which is a weird comp.
Another thing about size, and I don't know why no one's talking about this, but NFL receivers are getting smaller. In the late 90s into the middle 00s, you had enormous receivers like Moss, Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc. So teams started drafting bigger corners to keep up. I think a lot of NFL fans are still stuck in that mode.
But right now the best receivers in the NFL--Davante, Diggs, Kupp, JJ, Chase, Deebo, Lamb, Tyreek--are all just average size guys around 6-0, 200 lbs give or take. But they have incredible quickness and they'll break your ankles with the routes they run. They're better fits for modern offenses.
And so these monster corners like Xavier Rhodes can't hang with them, and they're becoming a thing of the past. If you look at who the best corners are in the NFL right now, they pretty much match the receivers in terms of size.
Even if the new era of receivers arent 6'3 or 6'4, you still want your CB's to have long arms with how quick receivers are out of their break. The conversation isn't is McDuffie big enough, because he's just fine, it's that he measured out to be in a bucket where history has said it's tough to make it as an outside corner. Jaire has long arms and Revis had insanely long arms so IDK if we can use them as comps. McDuffie would be a great slot CB, but we aren't drafting a slot CB at 12. As mentioned before, Trent may be the guy that proves the stat wrong, but recent history says he faces an uphill battle if he's an outside guy.
Long arms are a good thing, especially in press. But it's WAY overrated compared to far more important things like an ability to go from man to zone, press to off seamlessly, speed, change of direction, tackling ability, etc.
I agree and have agreed with a lot of what you are pointing out in this thread. Regardless, my stance will continue to be that 30" is the threshold for a reason with outside CB's.
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