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Looking for Guru to chime in here because I still don't understand the Yannick Ngakoue trade to Baltimore after 6 games. I understand the trade for him prior to the season with Hunter's availability in question and us still thinking we were a playoff team. The guy came in and did his job despite the team falling flat on their faces out of the gate. We end up giving a high second round pick to Jacksonville (45th) and moving him for a very low third round pick from Baltimore (91st). That's a 46 pick swing in draft position for a six game rental. To me this is one of the bigger blunders to criticize Spielman over when we have roster holes and need to fill them with quality draft picks due to our cap situation.
So why the move and was that really the best deal we could get? We never really got an explanation from the organization as to why on any of this.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
Looking for Guru to chime in here because I still don't understand the Yannick Ngakoue trade to Baltimore after 6 games. I understand the trade for him prior to the season with Hunter's availability in question and us still thinking we were a playoff team. The guy came in and did his job despite the team falling flat on their faces out of the gate. We end up giving a high second round pick to Jacksonville (45th) and moving him for a very low third round pick from Baltimore (91st). That's a 46 pick swing in draft position for a six game rental. To me this is one of the bigger blunders to criticize Spielman over when we have roster holes and need to fill them with quality draft picks due to our cap situation.
So why the move and was that really the best deal we could get? We never really got an explanation from the organization as to why on any of this.
we held no cards, ngakoue didnt want to be here, his desire all along was to be in baltimore, so we essentially took that compensatory pick a year early as he wouldnt have resigned here and we would have gotten a late 3rd round pick in return.
lots of reasons to bag on rick and Zim for this fuck up. starting with the notion at the time of the trade that we were a serious contender with all the question marks that surrounded the team in the year of covid.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
Looking for Guru to chime in here because I still don't understand the Yannick Ngakoue trade to Baltimore after 6 games. I understand the trade for him prior to the season with Hunter's availability in question and us still thinking we were a playoff team. The guy came in and did his job despite the team falling flat on their faces out of the gate. We end up giving a high second round pick to Jacksonville (45th) and moving him for a very low third round pick from Baltimore (91st). That's a 46 pick swing in draft position for a six game rental. To me this is one of the bigger blunders to criticize Spielman over when we have roster holes and need to fill them with quality draft picks due to our cap situation.
So why the move and was that really the best deal we could get? We never really got an explanation from the organization as to why on any of this.
There may have been some cultural or fit issues none of us are aware of. I've heard that speculated, but I kinda doubt it. Teams are pretty good about vetting players before spending draft capital to acquire them.
Here's the way I see it. Bringing Yannick in was about the synergy of having him work opposite Hunter. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. You have one good rusher, you double team, help with a TE or whatever. That's less effective when you have an equal threat on the other side.
Once it was known Hunter was out for the year, it made less sense to keep Yannick, both in terms of Xs and Os and salary cap. He was traded within hours of the Hunter announcement.
I think there were a few components that went into it. I don't think cultural issues in the locker room player into it.
When they traded for Yannick the compensation they gave up actually wasn't bad. A 2nd & conditional 5th for a guy who took a $5M pay cut to play for you was a decent move. He's a good pass rusher. But at the time the goal was clearly to make the trade to win now. I don't buy the fact they traded for Yannick to replace Danielle, the goal was to bridge the immediate gap of Hunter's absence and then the two could work in tandem. Really in theory the two should have been incredibly dominant since Hunter likes to work counters underneath or go through his guy while Yannick plays the arc. So you were basically threatening the pocket on multiple levels.
Where it fell short was that the Vikings weren't very good, Danielle ended up not coming back, and Yannick is not a well-rounded EDGE rusher. He goes after the QB and doesn't really care about much else. That's not a surprise since that's exactly what he was in Jacksonville. He never was going to perfectly fit the Vikings system but he was brought in as a one year mercenary. Once the season was lost (at the time) prior to the bye it was at least worth shopping him. At that juncture the Vikings had 3 or 4 different options:
1. Trade him to the Ravens for a 3rd this year and a conditional match of picks in 2022.
2. Hold him until the end of the season since the goal was to re-sign him on a long-term deal
3. Hold him until the end of the season with the goal of attempting a tag & trade
4. Hold him until the end of the season and let him walk for what would likely be a 2022 3rd, assuming the Vikings didn't offset it with a FA signing of their own
Number 2 was off the table since barring Yannick exploding they'd have to manipulate so many things to make a long-term deal make sense. I think the Ravens offer trumps #4 since you get the pick sooner than later and you can't potentially offset it with a FA signing of your own. It probably really came down to holding him to attempt a tag & trade this off-season or taking the compensation we got. The issue with the tag & trade route is that you still need a partner on the other side. But I would like to think you still could have gotten a 3rd or more while still getting his production for a full season. I also don't quite know why the Vikings jumped on the Ravens offer when they did. Could they have held out for a 2nd until deadline deal? Probably. Even if they didn't get it I think they'd still be able to get the offer they accepted.
Ultimately I think what unfolded early in the season was not what anyone expected. At that point the Vikings decided they weren't going to keep Yannick on a long-term deal so just took what they could get for him. It hurts to drop 46 picks but the 2nd rounder was already a sunk cost at that point. The team also has a small war chest of draft picks so its not like they can't get back into the 2nd round if they want.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
I think there were a few components that went into it. I don't think cultural issues in the locker room player into it.
When they traded for Yannick the compensation they gave up actually wasn't bad. A 2nd & conditional 5th for a guy who took a $5M pay cut to play for you was a decent move. He's a good pass rusher. But at the time the goal was clearly to make the trade to win now. I don't buy the fact they traded for Yannick to replace Danielle, the goal was to bridge the immediate gap of Hunter's absence and then the two could work in tandem. Really in theory the two should have been incredibly dominant since Hunter likes to work counters underneath or go through his guy while Yannick plays the arc. So you were basically threatening the pocket on multiple levels.
Where it fell short was that the Vikings weren't very good, Danielle ended up not coming back, and Yannick is not a well-rounded EDGE rusher. He goes after the QB and doesn't really care about much else. That's not a surprise since that's exactly what he was in Jacksonville. He never was going to perfectly fit the Vikings system but he was brought in as a one year mercenary. Once the season was lost (at the time) prior to the bye it was at least worth shopping him. At that juncture the Vikings had 3 or 4 different options:
1. Trade him to the Ravens for a 3rd this year and a conditional match of picks in 2022.
2. Hold him until the end of the season since the goal was to re-sign him on a long-term deal
3. Hold him until the end of the season with the goal of attempting a tag & trade
4. Hold him until the end of the season and let him walk for what would likely be a 2022 3rd, assuming the Vikings didn't offset it with a FA signing of their own
Number 2 was off the table since barring Yannick exploding they'd have to manipulate so many things to make a long-term deal make sense. I think the Ravens offer trumps #4 since you get the pick sooner than later and you can't potentially offset it with a FA signing of your own. It probably really came down to holding him to attempt a tag & trade this off-season or taking the compensation we got. The issue with the tag & trade route is that you still need a partner on the other side. But I would like to think you still could have gotten a 3rd or more while still getting his production for a full season. I also don't quite know why the Vikings jumped on the Ravens offer when they did. Could they have held out for a 2nd until deadline deal? Probably. Even if they didn't get it I think they'd still be able to get the offer they accepted.
Ultimately I think what unfolded early in the season was not what anyone expected. At that point the Vikings decided they weren't going to keep Yannick on a long-term deal so just took what they could get for him. It hurts to drop 46 picks but the 2nd rounder was already a sunk cost at that point. The team also has a small war chest of draft picks so its not like they can't get back into the 2nd round if they want.
I think we have basically the same take on the situation, but again my complaint was why the Ravens and why for only a 3rd round pick? Was that really the best offer we could muster for him when you knew going in the Ravens were one of the better teams in the league and that 3rd round pick was going to be towards the bottom of the round? It turned into a 46 point swing in draft pick position which is substantial. We go from picking 14th to not picking again until 79 (barring a trade up). I have a hard time believing that was the best offer we could get for him. Oakland was mentioned as a team who wanted him this offseason and Miami with all their draft capitol needed an edge rusher. I don't have a ton of issues with Spielman but this was one of the dumber moves of his tenure.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I think there were a few components that went into it. I don't think cultural issues in the locker room player into it.
When they traded for Yannick the compensation they gave up actually wasn't bad. A 2nd & conditional 5th for a guy who took a $5M pay cut to play for you was a decent move. He's a good pass rusher. But at the time the goal was clearly to make the trade to win now. I don't buy the fact they traded for Yannick to replace Danielle, the goal was to bridge the immediate gap of Hunter's absence and then the two could work in tandem. Really in theory the two should have been incredibly dominant since Hunter likes to work counters underneath or go through his guy while Yannick plays the arc. So you were basically threatening the pocket on multiple levels.
Where it fell short was that the Vikings weren't very good, Danielle ended up not coming back, and Yannick is not a well-rounded EDGE rusher. He goes after the QB and doesn't really care about much else. That's not a surprise since that's exactly what he was in Jacksonville. He never was going to perfectly fit the Vikings system but he was brought in as a one year mercenary. Once the season was lost (at the time) prior to the bye it was at least worth shopping him. At that juncture the Vikings had 3 or 4 different options:
1. Trade him to the Ravens for a 3rd this year and a conditional match of picks in 2022.
2. Hold him until the end of the season since the goal was to re-sign him on a long-term deal
3. Hold him until the end of the season with the goal of attempting a tag & trade
4. Hold him until the end of the season and let him walk for what would likely be a 2022 3rd, assuming the Vikings didn't offset it with a FA signing of their own
Number 2 was off the table since barring Yannick exploding they'd have to manipulate so many things to make a long-term deal make sense. I think the Ravens offer trumps #4 since you get the pick sooner than later and you can't potentially offset it with a FA signing of your own. It probably really came down to holding him to attempt a tag & trade this off-season or taking the compensation we got. The issue with the tag & trade route is that you still need a partner on the other side. But I would like to think you still could have gotten a 3rd or more while still getting his production for a full season. I also don't quite know why the Vikings jumped on the Ravens offer when they did. Could they have held out for a 2nd until deadline deal? Probably. Even if they didn't get it I think they'd still be able to get the offer they accepted.
Ultimately I think what unfolded early in the season was not what anyone expected. At that point the Vikings decided they weren't going to keep Yannick on a long-term deal so just took what they could get for him. It hurts to drop 46 picks but the 2nd rounder was already a sunk cost at that point. The team also has a small war chest of draft picks so its not like they can't get back into the 2nd round if they want.
I think we have basically the same take on the situation, but again my complaint was why the Ravens and why for only a 3rd round pick? Was that really the best offer we could muster for him when you knew going in the Ravens were one of the better teams in the league and that 3rd round pick was going to be towards the bottom of the round? It turned into a 46 point swing in draft pick position which is substantial. We go from picking 14th to not picking again until 79 (barring a trade up). I have a hard time believing that was the best offer we could get for him. Oakland was mentioned as a team who wanted him this offseason and Miami with all their draft capitol needed an edge rusher. I don't have a ton of issues with Spielman but this was one of the dumber moves of his tenure.
The NFL trade deadline always has suppressed prices since none of the sellers are going to end up trying to trade for your players and likewise only the contenders are going to make significant offers. The Vikings actually made a fairly good trade value wise given the circumstances. No other trade sniffed a 3rd round pick and even in previous years you have Marcus Peters and similar impact players going for 5th round picks alone. As much as I'd also had liked to get more I don't think it was going to be more than a 3rd regardless of team.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
I also don't quite know why the Vikings jumped on the Ravens offer when they did. Could they have held out for a 2nd until deadline deal? Probably.
Maybe, but I don't think so. Keep in mind that the market value of a player traded weeks after being acquired goes down. It's just market econ 101. The view from potential buyers is that you have a player who is being offered up by a second team in a matter of weeks. No team approaches that without a good measure of caution.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I also don't quite know why the Vikings jumped on the Ravens offer when they did. Could they have held out for a 2nd until deadline deal? Probably.
Maybe, but I don't think so. Keep in mind that the market value of a player traded weeks after being acquired goes down. It's just market econ 101. The view from potential buyers is that you have a player who is being offered up by a second team in a matter of weeks. No team approaches that without a good measure of caution.
I don't think they could have gotten a 2nd. More saying that they could have held onto Yannick a week or so longer to see if anyone else came to the table. I imagine the deal they took would have remained on the table.
My favorite is all the draft picks on kickers with nothing to show.
But: why did Spielman acquire Ngakoue without a contract extension already in place? Yannick agreed to lower his salary to fit into our cap, so couldn't he also have agreed to a new multi-year deal assuring he was a Viking for the next few years?
If they were allowed to work out an extension before committing to the trade (as the Bears did when acquiring Mack), it was a huge oversight to surrender a high pick for him without doing so. Even if they thought that 2nd was going to end up the 64th pick, IMO it was too high for a one-year rental.
If there was a contractual limitation or NFLPA rule which prevented that, OK: that means Spielman was betting the organization could effectively "recruit" him (although they still could have had a handshake agreement for an extension). So the team failed to cover the bet.
There are multiple areas for assessing a GM - drafting, free agents, picking coaches, finding QBs - and making trades is only one. But I think Spielman has a pretty bad grade in trading to acquire players. The big names that come to mind are Bradford and Ngakoue, and both were ultimately failures. You can rationalize that he didn't know Bradford's knee was shot (though his history suggested that was a huge risk) or that Yannick wanted to go to Baltimore (which they could have learned by meeting with him), but judge by results and they failed. Are there some other players he acquired by trade (more significant than Mike Wallace)?
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