Kwesi's Tumoral

What? The Vikings had one pick in the top 100 and he didn't make the All Rookie Team? For shame.

Tai Felton earned the even more prestigious, Chaz Surratt What Were They Thinking Award

I don’t know what this dude is smoking. Donovan Jackson is a very quality starter, and you don’t really expect 3rd round picks to be immediate contributors, and Tai Felton was brought in to replace Addison/Nailor when one or both of them leave or back them up when injured (which they’ve all been healthy). Everyone knows you can’t judge a draft after year 1.

I still maintain that the damning of Kwesi isn’t the picks he’s selected, it’s that he’s traded all the picks away. Even though I agree with a decent chunk of the trades, it cuts into the production from drafted players.

I think sometime next year, the Kwesi sucks at drafting narrative is going to collapse after we can’t pretend that Addison, JJM, Turner, Jackson weren’t pretty good picks. We’re kind of already there, as you’ve seen a bit of a shift in the narrative as people are now more saying things like Kwesi can’t draft rounds 2-4 well.

medaille wrote:
I don’t know what this dude is smoking.  Donovan Jackson is a very quality starter, and you don’t really expect 3rd round picks to be immediate contributors, and Tai Felton was brought in to replace Addison/Nailor when one or both of them leave or back them up when injured (which they’ve all been healthy).  Everyone knows you can’t judge a draft after year 1.

I still maintain that the damning of Kwesi isn’t the picks he’s selected, it’s that he’s traded all the picks away.  Even though I agree with a decent chunk of the trades, it cuts into the production from drafted players.

I think sometime next year, the Kwesi sucks at drafting narrative is going to collapse after we can’t pretend that Addison, JJM, Turner, Jackson weren’t pretty good picks.  We’re kind of already there, as you’ve seen a bit of a shift in the narrative as people are now more saying things like Kwesi can’t draft rounds 2-4 well.

It's been 4 years since the 2022 draft—his only objectively "bad" draft. And it's actually no longer the worst draft in our history now that Ingram is playing well and Nailor is contributing. That prize now goes to 2016. We got nothing from that draft.

MaroonBells wrote:

It's been 4 years since the 2022 draft—his only objectively "bad" draft. And it's actually no longer the worst draft in our history now that Ingram is playing well and Nailor is contributing. That prize now goes to 2016. We got nothing from that draft.

I still think it's he worst draft when you take into consideration other factors besides the actual players selected. Shitty draft compensation in awful tradedowns with division rivals that emphatically won those moves is a bad look. Nevermind the fact that we passed on some really good players to trade down into the cellar of round one for Lewis F'n Cine. There's no objective about it, that 2022 draft was a shit sandwich supreme. 

The problems with Kwesi are multi layered, with one of the main issues is he struggles identifying talent after the first round. While other teams are hitting on the Puka Nacua's in the mid rounds, what does Mensah have to show in terms of starters or major contributors from the draft after four years? Reichard? I mean, we are going into year five and the best players on this roster are STILL guys Spielman drafted lol! Zero pro bowl players this year. Zero all rookie team selections. I mean, people can try to wax poetic on Mensah all they want but the proof is just overwhelmingly bad.

supafreak84 wrote:

I still think it's he worst draft when you take into consideration other factors besides the actual players selected. Shitty draft compensation in awful tradedowns with division rivals that emphatically won those moves is a bad look. Nevermind the fact that we passed on some really good players to trade down into the cellar of round one for Lewis F'n Cine. There's no objective about it, that 2022 draft was a shit sandwich supreme. 

The problems with Kwesi are multi layered, with one of the main issues is he struggles identifying talent after the first round. While other teams are hitting on the Puka Nacua's in the mid rounds, what does Mensah have to show in terms of starters or major contributors from the draft after four years? Reichard? I mean, we are going into year five and the best players on this roster are STILL guys Spielman drafted lol! Zero pro bowl players this year. Zero all rookie team selections. I mean, people can try to wax poetic on Mensah all they want but the proof is just overwhelmingly bad.

In CONTEXT with other NFL teams and the Vikings own draft history, it isn't nearly as bad as you think. Seriously, go here and check out our last 10 drafts and tell me where all these great players are that we drafted before Kwesi came on board. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/draft.htm

2025
5 picks, 1 hit 20%
I think we can safely say that Jackson is a hit. He started every game and has looked solid. 

2024
7 picks, 2 hits 28%
Too early on McCarthy and LDR, but I think we can safely say that Turner and Reichard have futures. One could argue that Turner hasn't produced given what we gave up for him. Fair, but that's a different argument. This number could go way up if McCarthy turns out. 

2023
6 picks, 1 hit 17%
Addison
Mekhi Blackmon started 9 games for the Colts this year. Not the scouts fault for moving him. Still, can't be considered a hit. 

2022
10 picks, 1 hit 10%
Ingram. Worst draft since 2016. But Ingram is now a top 10 guard for Houston. Not the scouting team's fault for moving him. 
Jalen Nailor was a solid pick in the 6th, but he's not a starter, so not a hit. 

2021
11 picks, 2 hits. 18%
Darrisaw, Bynum
Pat Jones gets an honorable mention. Not a starter so not a hit, but a solid contributor. Nothing else in this draft. 

2020
15 picks, 3 hits. 20%
Jefferson, Cleveland, Metellus
Cleveland is starting in Jax. Again, can't blame the scouts for moving him. 
Brandel also gets a mention here since he's a valuable contributor. Not a starter though. 
Nothing else in this draft. 

2019
12 picks, 1 hit 8%
Bradbury and 11 pieces of shit. People hated GB and called him a bust, but he gets the hit because he was a full time starter and actually got a 2nd contract. Starting now in New England. 

2018
7 picks, 3 hit 42%
O’Neill, Conklin, Carlson
Good draft. Conklin wasn't a starter for us, but became one with the Jets. Carlson was cut, but again can't blame the scout team for moving him. 

2017
11 picks, 1 hit 9%
Cook...and 10 pieces of crap

2016
8 picks, 0 hits 0%
Worst draft in Vikings history

And if you think this is a slam on Spielman, it's not. Rick was one of the better drafting GMs in the NFL. It's a slam on the actual draft, where getting one good player is the NFL average, two good players is a good draft and three is outstanding.

All 4 of his drafts have been awful not just 2022. 4 years later and the best players on the team are still Spielman picks.

JR44 wrote:
All 4 of his drafts have been awful not just 2022.  4 years later and the best players on the team are still Spielman picks.

That is sad but true going into year 5.

MaroonBells wrote:

In CONTEXT with other NFL teams and the Vikings own draft history, it isn't nearly as bad as you think. Seriously, go here and check out our last 10 drafts and tell me where all these great players are that we drafted before Kwesi came on board. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/draft.htm

2025
5 picks, 1 hit 20%
I think we can safely say that Jackson is a hit. He started every game and has looked solid. 

2024
7 picks, 2 hits 28%
Too early on McCarthy and LDR, but I think we can safely say that Turner and Reichard have futures. One could argue that Turner hasn't produced given what we gave up for him. Fair, but that's a different argument. This number could go way up if McCarthy turns out. 

2023
6 picks, 1 hit 17%
Addison
Mekhi Blackmon started 9 games for the Colts this year. Not the scouts fault for moving him. Still, can't be considered a hit. 

2022
10 picks, 1 hit 10%
Ingram. Worst draft since 2016. But Ingram is now a top 10 guard for Houston. Not the scouting team's fault for moving him. 
Jalen Nailor was a solid pick in the 6th, but he's not a starter, so not a hit. 

2021
11 picks, 2 hits. 18%
Darrisaw, Bynum
Pat Jones gets an honorable mention. Not a starter so not a hit, but a solid contributor. Nothing else in this draft. 

2020
15 picks, 3 hits. 20%
Jefferson, Cleveland, Metellus
Cleveland is starting in Jax. Again, can't blame the scouts for moving him. 
Brandel also gets a mention here since he's a valuable contributor. Not a starter though. 
Nothing else in this draft. 

2019
12 picks, 1 hit 8%
Bradbury and 11 pieces of shit. People hated GB and called him a bust, but he gets the hit because he was a full time starter and actually got a 2nd contract. Starting now in New England. 

2018
7 picks, 3 hit 42%
O’Neill, Conklin, Carlson
Good draft. Conklin wasn't a starter for us, but became one with the Jets. Carlson was cut, but again can't blame the scout team for moving him. 

2017
11 picks, 1 hit 9%
Cook...and 10 pieces of crap

2016
8 picks, 0 hits 0%
Worst draft in Vikings history

And if you think this is a slam on Spielman, it's not. Rick was one of the better drafting GMs in the NFL. It's a slam on the actual draft, where getting one good player is the NFL average, two good players is a good draft and three is outstanding.

There's been some statistical comparison posted on this board about the other teams in our division and how overwhelmingly lopsided it was between them and the Vikings in starting players or major contributors drafted in the same time period Kwesi has been running drafts in Minnesota. GM's and scouting departments make their bread AFTER the 1st round, which you know, and to say that's been a struggle for Kwesi would be the understatement of the year. I don't really care that draft picks produce AFTER they've been traded or released because they didn't contribute as Vikings. Ditto on any live bodies signed in UDFA, because if you think the regular draft is a crapshoot, well pulling anything out of UDFA is the crapshoot of all crapshoots. Only 9% of all UDFA make NFL rosters. That's a real game of luck and my argument has always been with guys like Thielen and Redmond is that if you thought they were good you would have drafted them, you just got lucky as statistics prove. We need to be better at drafting players and not just in the first round.

supafreak84 wrote:

There's been some statistical comparison posted on this board about the other teams in our division and how overwhelmingly lopsided it was between them and the Vikings in starting players or major contributors drafted in the same time period Kwesi has been running drafts in Minnesota. GM's and scouting departments make their bread AFTER the 1st round, which you know, and to say that's been a struggle for Kwesi would be the understatement of the year. I don't really care that draft picks produce AFTER they've been traded or released because they didn't contribute as Vikings. Ditto on any live bodies signed in UDFA, because if you think the regular draft is a crapshoot, well pulling anything out of UDFA is the crapshoot of all crapshoots. Only 9% of all UDFA make NFL rosters. That's a real game of luck and my argument has always been with guys like Thielen and Redmond is that if you thought they were good you would have drafted them, you just got lucky as statistics prove. We need to be better at drafting players and not just in the first round.

The problem with that statistical comparison that went around a few weeks ago was that it wasn’t about “starters.” It was about “starts” out of “possible starts.” The Vikings are obviously going to do poorly in that metric given the fact that JJ McCarthy, Dallas Turner and Khyree Jackson were 0 fer 51 in starts last year. I don’t need to tell you the reasons why. What’s more, all of our 2023 2nd rounder’s possible starts (34) would be found in TJ Hockenson.

At any rate, nobody is arguing that Kwesi is a great drafting GM, only that he’s not been nearly as bad as some have made it sound. 2022 was terrible, every draft since then has been about par or too early to call. Yes, in terms of sustainability, he needs to do a better job in the depth rounds. But it’s been four years since we’ve had a 2nd rounder. He’s covered those losses well by pulling players like Greenard, Gink, Eric Wilson and Jalen Redmond from free agency.

We had one pick in the top 100 last year. This year we’ll have 4. He needs to do well with those picks.

MaroonBells wrote:

The problem with that statistical comparison that went around a few weeks ago was that it wasn’t about “starters.” It was about “starts” out of “possible starts.” The Vikings are obviously going to do poorly in that metric given the fact that JJ McCarthy, Dallas Turner and Khyree Jackson were 0 fer 51 in starts last year. I don’t need to tell you the reasons why. What’s more, all of our 2023 2nd rounder’s possible starts (34) would be found in TJ Hockenson.

At any rate, nobody is arguing that Kwesi is a great drafting GM, only that he’s not been nearly as bad as some have made it sound. 2022 was terrible, every draft since then has been about par or too early to call. Yes, in terms of sustainability, he needs to do a better job in the depth rounds. But it’s been four years since we’ve had a 2nd rounder. He’s covered those losses well by pulling players like Greenard, Gink, Eric Wilson and Jalen Redmond from free agency.

We had one pick in the top 100 last year. This year we’ll have 4. He needs to do well with those picks.

Just based on history, I'd prefer him not being the one making those picks, but I'm sure the mini streak has saved his job so I agree that he needs to hit on all those early picks and produce an entire draft with some impact outside of the 1st round

supafreak84 wrote:

Just based on history, I'd prefer him not being the one making those picks, but I'm sure the mini streak has saved his job so I agree that he needs to hit on all those early picks and produce an entire draft with some impact outside of the 1st round

I doubt his job was ever in danger. Couple GMs get booted every year, but in almost every instance it's either because of several years with a losing record, some big expensive mistake, or some kind of front office dysfunction (see Mike and Rick). Vikings are 42-25 since Kwesi took over. They have the reigning coach of the year, one of the better team cultures in the NFL, and a pretty good free agency record.

MaroonBells wrote:

I doubt his job was ever in danger. Couple GMs get booted every year, but in almost every instance it's either because of several years with a losing record, some big expensive mistake, or some kind of front office dysfunction (see Mike and Rick). Vikings are 42-25 since Kwesi took over. They have the reigning coach of the year, one of the better team cultures in the NFL, and a pretty good free agency record.

You forgot the most important part....zero postseason wins

supafreak84 wrote:

You forgot the most important part....zero postseason wins

This is his 4th season. Les Snead won his first postseason game in his 7th season. Howie Roseman won his first postseason game in his 8th season. And neither had a record near as good as Kwesi's after 4 seasons.

MaroonBells wrote:

This is his 4th season. Les Snead won his first postseason game in his 7th season. Howie Roseman won his first postseason game in his 8th season. And neither had a record near as good as Kwesi's after 4 seasons.

Well there will be no postseason success this season obviously, so we're rolling into year 5. I'd also say those franchises you referenced were in much worse shape when Snead and Roseman took over than the playoff ready roster Spielman served up to Kwesi on a silver platter. Kwesi was very fortunate to inherit the roster that he did and that can obviously be pointed to in reference to his overall record thusfar. Imagine with all his early struggles if he had inherited a wrecked roster that most new GM's do inherit.

supafreak84 wrote:

Well there will be no postseason success this season obviously, so we're rolling into year 5. I'd also say those franchises you referenced were in much worse shape when Snead and Roseman took over than the playoff ready roster Spielman served up to Kwesi on a silver platter. Kwesi was very fortunate to inherit the roster that he did and that can obviously be pointed to in reference to his overall record thusfar. Imagine with all his early struggles if he had inherited a wrecked roster that most new GM's do inherit.

Rick also left the team in salary cap hell due to handing out contract extensions to aging veterans such as Eric Kendricks. In both 2022 & 2023 the team was more than $20M over the cap. We gave Kirko his last extension in 2022 just to clear enough cap to sign Harrison Phillips & Za'Darius Smith.

Knucklehead wrote:

Rick also left the team in salary cap hell due to handing out contract extensions to aging veterans such as Eric Kendricks. In both 2022 & 2023 the team was more than $20M over the cap. We gave Kirko his last extension in 2022 just to clear enough cap to sign Harrison Phillips & Za'Darius Smith.

There's no such thing as salary cap hell. The Vikings have been active in free agency each and every offseason Kwesi has been in charge, mostly out of necessity due to draft misses.