IF you have the stomach for it: Another JJM Thread
Analysis: Vikings Nation needs to stay patient with J.J. McCarthy
Ask Matthew Stafford, Baker Mayfield and Peyton Manning whether final judgment should be rendered on McCarthy after only six career games.
If you’re among the few humans left with the patience to read these words, please reduce them to a catchy video soundbite and share with the others in Vikings Nation.
This is a tale about some young quarterbacks who were gosh-awful through six games of NFL careers that began as first-round draft picks.
The first fella was terrible. In his sixth game, he threw five interceptions and posted a 42.2 passer rating as his record fell to 1-5 with a 53.7 completion percentage, five touchdown passes and 12 interceptions.
His name: Matthew Stafford.
This next guy was even worse. In his sixth game, he completed 48.8% of his passes as his record fell to 1-5 with six touchdown passes and 14 interceptions.
His name: Peyton Manning.
We could go on.
We could mention how Drake Maye started 2-4 while completing 57.5% of his passes with New England last year. We could mention that Baker Mayfield started 1-5 while completing 58.7% of his passes with Cleveland in 2018.
None of this is meant to say the Vikings’ J.J. McCarthy will be the MVP front-runner when he’s 37, like Stafford. Or win five MVPs and stroll into the Hall of Fame, like Manning. Or start next season 10-2 while completing a league-best 71% of his passes on a team that sits atop its conference, like Maye is doing in Year 2 with New England.
It is, however, meant to somehow influence Vikings Nation and national media folks to CALM THE HECK DOWN! Just a whiff of something resembling a hint of patience would be a good start.
McCarthy is 2-4. He’s a 54.1% passer. He has thrown six touchdown passes and 10 interceptions. His passer rating is 57.9.
He has not been good. And now he’s in the concussion protocol and unlikely to play Sunday at Seattle.
But…
Six games, people. SIX.
So, to answer the ridiculous but predictably uber-impatient NFL question of the week, no, the Vikings shouldn’t move on from McCarthy. Not now or next week if undrafted rookie Max Brosmer somehow helps upset Sam Darnold and the Seahawks.
Good Lord.
Franchise-altering decisions were made with McCarthy as the focal point. More will follow. Brosmer? Sorry, Max, but please. In this movie, your name comes at the end of the credits as “third quarterback to appear.”
Granted, McCarthy’s sixth game included a second half in which the Vikings posted 4 yards while holding the ball for 8½ minutes in a stinker at Green Bay. But still…
Six games. SIX.
Quarterback is a different animal. Understood. But can’t some of the oxygen spent on destroying McCarthy since the second half of the Packers game be spread to, among others…
Left tackle Christian Darrisaw looking like T.J. Clemmings against Micah Parsons?
Center Ryan Kelly looking like Garrett Bradbury getting run over by Parsons?
Brian O’Neill not looking like the top-three right tackle he was a year ago, especially on that fourth-and-1 tackle for a loss in the red zone?
Adam Thielen dropping a pass?
Blake Cashman getting run over by a backup running back while in great position in the gap on first-and-goal from the 1?
Josh Metellus handing the Packers their first touchdown with a 24-yard pass interference penalty?
Myles Price not getting the heck away from a punted ball he chose not to field?
Yes, one is well aware that there are other tales about young quarterbacks who were gosh-awful through six games and never turned it around.
Like McCarthy, Josh Rosen was a 10th overall pick (2018) who started 2-4. The Arizona Cardinals gave up on him after 13 games (3-10) to select Kyler Murray No. 1 overall the next spring en route to paying him a now-franchise-choking $46.1 million a year.
Does anyone believe the Cardinals hold the blueprint for success at making quarterback decisions?
Ryan Leaf started 2-4 with one touchdown pass and 12 interceptions as the second overall pick in 1998. He lasted three years, went 4-14 with the Chargers, 0-3 with the Dolphins and become synonymous with draft busts.
Christian Ponder started 1-5 as the 12th overall pick of the Vikings in 2011. Believe it or not, he had a higher completion percentage (56.3) than McCarthy. The Vikings gave up on him completely after four years and 36 games (14-21-1).
Could McCarthy end up following the paths of Rosen, Leaf or Ponder? Possibly.
But McCarthy has a more stable franchise than Rosen had, better coaching than Ponder had (we should try to remember what Kevin O’Connell did for Darnold’s career and bank account just last season) and appears to be infinitely more mature than Leaf was as a player or rich, young person off the field.
Where McCarthy goes from here is anyone’s guess. But, for gosh sakes, he’s six games into his journey.
Patience, people.
And if you fail at practicing some sort of patience, go ask the QB-starved Browns, Jets and Giants — combined record: 7-27 — if they wish they had been more patient with their former first-round draft picks Mayfield, Darnold and Daniel Jones — combined record: 22-11.
STRIB
Hurry-up Vikings, we ain't getting any younger!
I feel like the hope and expectations are super high. He has played 6 games. It has been a roller coaster ride of ridiculous and brutal at times but still it is 6 games. I really hope things can click but ugh it is rough right now. He lost a year and now he is learning on the job. Hoping for the best but time will tell. He is definitely getting roasted everywhere. I remember KOC saying that qbs don't fail franchises, coaches fail them. Well it is definitely time to step up
You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it. — Robin Williams
I'm still hopeful JJM turns it around before the end of this season. As has already been mentioned several times, he's only 22, with an infant at home, complex offense, so on and so forth. Then top it off with a veteran heavy team with playoff expectations, which in theory is a good surround for a young QB, but also increases the mental stress to perform well. I agree with the others who've said if he can get his mind right, he has the physical tools.
Here's to hoping JJM and those with dirty hands in the organization are scheduled for the next available darkness retreat to cleanse themselves. :D
All good points. Everyone is pressing and making mistakes. Jefferson dropping balls, special teams making bonehead plays. Trouble is the snowball effect. Can KOC right the ship?
I've been a Vikings fan since day one. I think that defines the word patience!
hogjowlsjohnny wrote:
I've been a Vikings fan since day one. I think that defines the word patience!
Since the 70's for me...
I would have called anyone insane if they told me in 1977 vs Raiders that is the last SB they would play in for almost 50 years.
Insane.
Hurry-up Vikings, we ain't getting any younger!
For every ridiculous Peyton Manning or Josh Allen reference there should be a Zach Wilson or Josh Rosen one for balance.
Here's a guy who saw it all before it happened. A Zach comp but not the way you think.
https://firstroundmock.com/2023/12/zach-wilson-is-better-than-j-j-mccarthy/
StickierBuns wrote:
SI.com: Why It’s Way Too Early to Draw Any Definitive Conclusions on Vikings QB J.J. McCarthy https://www.si.com/nfl/way-too-early-to-draw-definitive-conclusions-about-vikings-qb-jj-mccarthy
comet52 wrote:
For every ridiculous Peyton Manning or Josh Allen reference there should be a Zach Wilson or Josh Rosen one for balance. Here's a guy who saw it all before it happened. A Zach comp but not the way you think. https://firstroundmock.com/2023/12/zach-wilson-is-better-than-j-j-mccarthy/
The whole thing is just sad to me..
This sums it up pretty, pretty well, He throws into 2 defenders at an alarming rate and holds the ball too long. Everything my eyes have seen says bust, but a little flickr inside says its just 6 games...
McCarthy’s body of work, slim as it is, per the NFC North scout above, is “too limited to really judge. “But if you’re judging (anyway),” the scout says, “There’s not much besides doom.” Like after 11 weeks, when McCarthy’s completion percentage (52.9) ranked second-to-last in the NFL, ahead only of Shedeur Sanders in limited action.
There is no doubt he'll be on the roster in 26...The only question is will he be an anointed starter or in a camp competition to start vs a proven vet?
You'd have to say the latter as of Thanksgiving day.
Hurry-up Vikings, we ain't getting any younger!
purplefaithful wrote:
The whole thing is just sad to me..
This sums it up pretty, pretty well, He throws into 2 defenders at an alarming rate and holds the ball too long. Everything my eyes have seen says bust, but a little flickr inside says its just 6 games...
McCarthy’s body of work, slim as it is, per the NFC North scout above, is “too limited to really judge. “But if you’re judging (anyway),” the scout says, “There’s not much besides doom.” Like after 11 weeks, when McCarthy’s completion percentage (52.9) ranked second-to-last in the NFL, ahead only of Shedeur Sanders in limited action.
There is no doubt he'll be on the roster in 26...The only question is will he be an anointed starter or in a camp competition to start vs a proven vet?
You'd have to say the latter as of Thanksgiving day.
There's no way based on what we've seen, he gets annointed anything other then a roster spot (maybe). A veteran or two, depending on Brosmer, will be brought in. It's such a shitty situation to put all your eggs in the McCarthy basket and to see him fail so miserably. The last position we wanted to be in going into the offseason is the "what now" scenario at quarterback and basically starting the entire process all over again.
supafreak84 wrote:
There's no way based on what we've seen, he gets annointed anything other then a roster spot (maybe). A veteran or two, depending on Brosmer, will be brought in. It's such a shitty situation to put all your eggs in the McCarthy basket and to see him fail so miserably. The last position we wanted to be in going into the offseason is the "what now" scenario at quarterback and basically starting the entire process all over again.
Which brings me to some admiration for franchises that cut their losses early...Its good awareness on their part. NE with Mac Jones is the perfect example.
And no, JJM is not playing anywhere near as well as Jones did.
Vikings could very well have a top 6 pick and might be tempted again at a a QB, cant discount it.
Hurry-up Vikings, we ain't getting any younger!
purplefaithful wrote:
Vikings could very well have a top 6 pick and might be tempted again at a a QB, cant discount it.
And I'd be okay with that as long as we have a new GM making that decision. There's no way, after the countless draft misses and this fresh whiff on McCarthy, that you let Mensah make that call.
comet52 wrote:
For every ridiculous Peyton Manning or Josh Allen reference there should be a Zach Wilson or Josh Rosen one for balance.Here's a guy who saw it all before it happened. A Zach comp but not the way you think.
https://firstroundmock.com/2023/12/zach-wilson-is-better-than-j-j-mccarthy/
This but Brosmer -> Purdy! Brady! Romo!
There's a reason people know those guys names lol. Extreme outlier exceptions. I think our defense might hold their own in Seattle but my expectations for the offense are l-o-w low.
All good points, either way.
I was a big Bo Nix fan when he was at Oregon. That worked out pretty good for Denver.
I've been saying for some times to compare Manning et al combined first season...they all had sorry results, and yeah, they turned them around in year two.
Some of us hoped that he would treat his redshirt year last year as that true rookie year, but not getting snaps does matter, it appears.
I am not blaming anyone but us for believing that just because he won at every level, that would translate to the NFL and maybe a run to the Lombardi trophy this year. Seriously delusional when viewed through the lens of 20/20 hindsight.
Having said all that, I am quite curious of Brosmer's performance against the Seahawks. I really do feel that his quick(er) release and the fact that he was a college starter for a couple additional years compared to JJM. I mean, he was the FCS top ranked passer two years ago. Don't discount the fact that it was New Hampshire. He was a starter for five out of six seasons (held out of 2021 season not for COVID, but for medical reasons). He had six total seasons of college ball.
His stat line looks like an interesting comparable to Bo Nix. Each of his last three seasons in college, his completion % increased. From 62.2 to 64 to 68.8 his last year with the Golden Gophers. I don't know what kind of receivers he had at New Hampshire, but he threw for over 3,400 yards in 11 games his final season there. His Junior season his stat line was 27 TDs against 8 picks. His Senior season improved to 29 and 5. His QB rating those two years were 143 and 146 respectively. His stat line dropped a bit in Big Ten play, but he still set Gopher passing records for completions. However, he is not much of a true dual threat QB.
He's a solid 6'2 218 on the roster (ever seen his thighs?). He'll be 25 in March.
Everybody gets a kick at the can. It will work itself out. Be patient with either young kid. Sunday, I do not think the Vikings have a chance against Darnold. That's not why I'm watching...I'm watching to see if Brosmer takes advantage of his opportunity.
I have some curiosity to watch Brosmer...
My radar is going to be high for whether this team has quit for the year (or not).
Hurry-up Vikings, we ain't getting any younger!
purplefaithful wrote:
I have some curiosity to watch Brosmer...My radar is going to be high for whether this team has quit for the year (or not).
if this team is not up for this game, then I would start to look at replacing KOC, I think they will be plenty prepared and properly motivated though.
Why isn't Chuck Foreman in the Hall of Fame?
JimmyinSD wrote:
if this team is not up for this game, then I would start to look at replacing KOC, I think they will be plenty prepared and properly motivated though.
It's not going to surprise me (anybody?) if Brosmer looks better than McCarthy has...
Then what? You ride that horse till it fails?
At some point the teams best interests and whats best for JJM may not inter-sect. Feels like we might be approaching that juncture.
We'll see I guess....
Hurry-up Vikings, we ain't getting any younger!
purplefaithful wrote:
It's not going to surprise me (anybody?) if Brosmer looks better than McCarthy has...
Then what? You ride that horse till it fails?
At some point the teams best interests and whats best for JJM may not inter-sect. Feels like we might be approaching that juncture.
We'll see I guess....
if Brosmer shines, you ride him until they are eliminated from the playoffs, then you treat the remaining games like preseason where they share reps in practice with the 1s, and each one gets a longer spell in the games, maybe alternating starters or whatever to use the remaining time as another preseason. I know they would never do this, would likely piss veterans off to no end, but its what I would like to see happen.
Why isn't Chuck Foreman in the Hall of Fame?
JimmyinSD wrote:
if Brosmer shines, you ride him until they are eliminated from the playoffs, then you treat the remaining games like preseason where they share reps in practice with the 1s, and each one gets a longer spell in the games, maybe alternating starters or whatever to use the remaining time as another preseason. I know they would never do this, would likely piss veterans off to no end, but its what I would like to see happen.
Yeah the last bit wouldn’t happen as you say. If Brosmer is playing well and giving us a chance to win or better you just keep him in as he deserves to win the job. You go to camp next year and have an open competition Including Wentz or whomever vet and hope JJM improves enough to easily win the job back.
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