Ya Let’s hold off on that Kevin O’Connell contract extension

DH11 wrote:
Yeah, Sam Darnold shit to bed, but the Rams did the exact same thing defensively as Detroit did, and Kevin  made no adjustments whatsoever. Just about every first read for Sam was 15 to 20 yards downfield just like it was in Detroit. He got beat at home by the Daniel Jones lead New York Giants - and got beat basically in  another home game by an inferior team tonight. He was clearly  out coached badly in all 3 games. Oh well go Vikings!!

I realize the wounds are fresh, but your assessment of KOC couldn’t be any more wrong. There were receivers running wide open that Darnold couldn’t hit. The scheme was fine. The Lions broke Darnold and the Rams followed suit. There is realistically no game plan that could have changed the outcome of this game with Darnold running the plays. 

Ed Donatell shit the bed against the Giants WAY more than KOC did. At the end of the day, it’s a near miracle that KOC coaxed that kind of year out of Sam Darnold and SHOULD show anyone with eyes what kind of coach he is. Now give this guy a QB who doesn’t melt under the bright lights and I think we see a coach who can win a Super Bowl.

Is JJM that guy?? I really hope (think) so. But either way we’re gonna find out real soon.

CFIAvike wrote:
I realize the wounds are fresh, but your assessment of KOC couldn’t be any more wrong. There were receivers running wide open that Darnold couldn’t hit. The scheme was fine. The Lions broke Darnold and the Rams followed suit. There is realistically no game plan that could have changed the outcome of this game with Darnold running the plays. 

Ed Donatell shit the bed against the Giants WAY more than KOC did. At the end of the day, it’s a near miracle that KOC coaxed that kind of year out of Sam Darnold and SHOULD show anyone with eyes what kind of coach he is. Now give this guy a QB who doesn’t melt under the bright lights and I think we see a coach who can win a Super Bowl.

Is JJM that guy?? I really hope (think) so. But either way we’re gonna find out real soon.

He is just a troll. His KOC assessment is completely wrong.

CFIAvike wrote:
I realize the wounds are fresh, but your assessment of KOC couldn’t be any more wrong. There were receivers running wide open that Darnold couldn’t hit. The scheme was fine. The Lions broke Darnold and the Rams followed suit. There is realistically no game plan that could have changed the outcome of this game with Darnold running the plays. 

Ed Donatell shit the bed against the Giants WAY more than KOC did. At the end of the day, it’s a near miracle that KOC coaxed that kind of year out of Sam Darnold and SHOULD show anyone with eyes what kind of coach he is. Now give this guy a QB who doesn’t melt under the bright lights and I think we see a coach who can win a Super Bowl.

Is JJM that guy?? I really hope (think) so. But either way we’re gonna find out real soon.

Canthony wrote:

He is just a troll. His KOC assessment is completely wrong.

Troll? No i’m not but I can see when a coach is clearly outclassed and he’s been outclassed the last two weeks. Not once did I see a three-step drop getting rid of the ball quickly all the routes were 15 to 20 yards down field. It was pathetic. I’m not saying Sam  is the answer and I have my doubts about JJ McCarthy - He was nothing more than a caretaker, but the head coaching was abysmal the last two weeks to think otherwise would be burying your head in the sand. All the Rams did defensively was copy what Detroit did and he should’ve been prepared for that. He was terrible at making adjustments.

KOC is going to get his extension, however there are valid shortcomings to point out that he needs to fix if this team is going to take the next step offensively and its not just on the players not executing. There are still failures from a coaching as well as play calling perspective that are KOCs the bear, but hes getting that extension, hes earned it based on his first 3 years results.

Canthony wrote:

He is just a troll. His KOC assessment is completely wrong.

People can take an alternative view without being a troll.  The excitement of the season will bring new people to the board or entice old lurkers to speak up,  but theres been plenty of positions youve talen that went against the consensus opinion,  but that didnt make you a troll.

Play nice,   we need more posters bringing differeing takes or this place dies.

StickierBuns wrote:

More posters? Coming from where? The biggest boards have the most trolls, feed the trolls here and you'll see people leave, not more come. The board has already been divided multiple times. You understand that many of the 'lurkers' are either spammers, bots or the like right? Its not people scared to post or intimidated not to.

Good way to have this place 'die' is too allow trolls. This guy signed up two weeks ago to do just what he's doing.

I have a pretty good take on who signs up and when,  im saying the takes are not completely wrong,  even so,  its a fresh wound and we all handle the crushing defeats differently.  Let him vent for a day or two and see how it goes.

I was getting ripped a few weeks ago foe pointing out some issues with SD coming off a win,  those same issues are now glaringly apparent to everyone,  DH11 may be proven right with time, i dont think so,  but time will tell.

StickierBuns wrote:

I think 'ripped' is a bit dramatic, my point was they were still winning so why bitch too much? Always time to bitch and now is that time, hell last week was that time. 
I think some signs were there almost all year long, but week to week the winning just kept happening. Until it didn't, of course.

The signs were getting bigger and more glaring,   maybe if they had been addressed in October, the team would still be playing next week.  Thats what good coaching does is fix issues when they are small ones instead of letting them fester until they become a real issue.

Giving a pass to SD's issues because the result was a W was not what he needed IMO,  his holding the ball and sailing passes may have been corrected early if focused on.  If he failed then you find somebody that can.

Either way,  entertaining season with twice as many wins as expected, ( many dramatic )  1 more game than most anticipated ( even if it was painful to watch)  now onto fixing the roster and finding out what weve got in our shiny new toys in 25.  Only about 7 more months until TC.

The thing is... after the Indy and Jacksonville games, the high or off target throws were 5-6 passes per game. Darnold was completing like 65% of his passes on 30+ attempts. It wasn't until these last two games where the high and/or off target passes were the majority instead of the minority.

Every QB has bad throws here and there. Seemed like the bigger the stakes, the worse Sam played.

He still had a good season overall, but QBs are defined by what they do in the big moments and big games and Darnold wasn't good enough when we the stakes were highest.

This team was predicted to win 6.5 games. Vegas is generally right. We doubled that with Sam “seeing ghosts” Darnold.

KOC has earned the right to play a QB he has picked through JJM’s rookie contract.

If you can’t see that, you’re pretty much trolling.

This loss is more on KOC/Flores than it was on Darnold. The Lions and Rams solved our schemes and we didn't have counterpunches. They knew what our blocking scheme didn't have answers for and kept spamming those same looks. Push back our weak interior OLine into Darnolds lap, and then have the edge pressure contain him like a mobile QB. Whether it was stunts or delayed blitzes that waited until the OLine committed, they kept getting free rushers, and our blocking scheme didn't have answers. I think with better interior OLine players it probably would have been fine. Maybe with elite tier QB play we would have been fine. But no one has a perfect team, everyone is playing with strengths and weaknesses in their roster and coaches have to be able to anticipate what the other team will do and have schematic answers and we didn't adapt at all.

I know the "Darnold just turned back into a pumpkin and he was always trash and KOC is god for elevating trash into a functional QB" take will probably be pretty popular, but I just don't buy it. I think KOC will go back and look at these games find some tweaks in the scheme that could have made these games W's, and next year our offense will be more robust. So much of this game is planning out contingency plans in advance, and practicing them months ago. Teams struggle when their schemes get figured out, because being successful requires you to have everything well practiced and ingrained in muscle memory, and you can't build that in the middle of a game.

On defense it was very similar. All defenses have weakenesses. Ours were figured out months ago, and we're near the bottom of the league in terms of yardage, but we've depended on getting like 2-3 game changing plays each game. Basically, we've covered the flats and the deep zones, but left holes in the intermediate routes. If you have a good QB, you can just spam the intermediate routes with options and only look there, and if your OLine doesn't get massively confused, you can beat our defense. I'm a little more lenient on Flores because I think he's been working with less talent on his side of the ball and there was more compromises that had to be made.

I do think we overachieved this year in that we probably don't have the same roster quality as the top teams, but I also think that we were one-dimensional in our schemes, and we probably should have gone deeper in the playoffs, but I don't think we were winning 3 in a row against the Rams, Eagles, Lions.

The biggest weakness's we need to solve schematically, is that our offense needs to have multiple ways of stressing a defense (schematically). There 100% needs to be a strategy for getting the ball out at various time frames. KOC has the longest running plays by design to get explosives. There should be options for getting to the back of the drop and immediately throwing timing plays. There should be a quick passing game where the ball is out almost immediately without a dropback. There should be options for moving the pocket to manage pressure. There should be options for going big on the OLine and manufacturing some extra physicality. We also need to upgrade our interior OLine to the point were we can exert our will physically in the running game and hold up in the middle on passing plays.

On defense, we need man capable corners, and Flores needs to move the holes around more. While giving up the deep play is bad, so is giving up 6 intermediate throws in a row.

JimmyinSD wrote:

People can take an alternative view without being a troll.  The excitement of the season will bring new people to the board or entice old lurkers to speak up,  but theres been plenty of positions youve talen that went against the consensus opinion,  but that didnt make you a troll.

Play nice,   we need more posters bringing differeing takes or this place dies.

Jim, you are usually correct but I know this dude from the old KFAN board(MNRUBECHAT) that has been banned hundreds of times. I saw him start out slow and now it’s his MO to a T with the first sign of adversity.

DH11 wrote:

Troll? No i’m not but I can see when a coach is clearly outclassed and he’s been outclassed the last two weeks. Not once did I see a three-step drop getting rid of the ball quickly all the routes were 15 to 20 yards down field. It was pathetic. I’m not saying Sam  is the answer and I have my doubts about JJ McCarthy - He was nothing more than a caretaker, but the head coaching was abysmal the last two weeks to think otherwise would be burying your head in the sand. All the Rams did defensively was copy what Detroit did and he should’ve been prepared for that. He was terrible at making adjustments.

DH, you never learn.  What is wrong with you.  I know a good board for you.  The Viking horn.  You will love it !

JimmyinSD wrote:

People can take an alternative view without being a troll.  The excitement of the season will bring new people to the board or entice old lurkers to speak up,  but theres been plenty of positions youve talen that went against the consensus opinion,  but that didnt make you a troll.

Play nice,   we need more posters bringing differeing takes or this place dies.

Jim, you are usually correct but I know this dude from the old KFAN board(MNRUBECHAT) that has been banned hundreds of times. I saw him start out slow and now it’s his MO to a T with the first sign of adversity.

Two things can be right at the same time. Dude can be a troll (I'm not making that accusation) and KOC needs to get better.

Could KOC have made some adjustments to get more out of the offense? I don't know, maybe. But he's going to get his extension and he deserves one. The good he's done far outweighs the bad. That should be obvious.

medaille wrote:
This loss is more on KOC/Flores than it was on Darnold.  The Lions and Rams solved our schemes and we didn't have counterpunches.  They knew what our blocking scheme didn't have answers for and kept spamming those same looks.  Push back our weak interior OLine into Darnolds lap, and then have the edge pressure contain him like a mobile QB.  Whether it was stunts or delayed blitzes that waited until the OLine committed, they kept getting free rushers, and our blocking scheme didn't have answers.  I think with better interior OLine players it probably would have been fine.  Maybe with elite tier QB play we would have been fine.  But no one has a perfect team, everyone is playing with strengths and weaknesses in their roster and coaches have to be able to anticipate what the other team will do and have schematic answers and we didn't adapt at all.

I know the "Darnold just turned back into a pumpkin and he was always trash and KOC is god for elevating trash into a functional QB" take will probably be pretty popular, but I just don't buy it.  I think KOC will go back and look at these games find some tweaks in the scheme that could have made these games W's, and next year our offense will be more robust.  So much of this game is planning out contingency plans in advance, and practicing them months ago.  Teams struggle when their schemes get figured out, because being successful requires you to have everything well practiced and ingrained in muscle memory, and you can't build that in the middle of a game.

On defense it was very similar.  All defenses have weakenesses.  Ours were figured out months ago, and we're near the bottom of the league in terms of yardage, but we've depended on getting like 2-3 game changing plays each game.  Basically, we've covered the flats and the deep zones, but left holes in the intermediate routes.  If you have a good QB, you can just spam the intermediate routes with options and only look there, and if your OLine doesn't get massively confused, you can beat our defense.  I'm a little more lenient on Flores because I think he's been working with less talent on his side of the ball and there was more compromises that had to be made.

I do think we overachieved this year in that we probably don't have the same roster quality as the top teams, but I also think that we were one-dimensional in our schemes, and we probably should have gone deeper in the playoffs, but I don't think we were winning 3 in a row against the Rams, Eagles, Lions.

The biggest weakness's we need to solve schematically, is that our offense needs to have multiple ways of stressing a defense (schematically).  There 100% needs to be a strategy for getting the ball out at various time frames.  KOC has the longest running plays by design to get explosives.  There should be options for getting to the back of the drop and immediately throwing timing plays.  There should be a quick passing game where the ball is out almost immediately without a dropback.  There should be options for moving the pocket to manage pressure.  There should be options for going big on the OLine and manufacturing some extra physicality.  We also need to upgrade our interior OLine to the point were we can exert our will physically in the running game and hold up in the middle on passing plays.

On defense, we need man capable corners, and Flores needs to move the holes around more.  While giving up the deep play is bad, so is giving up 6 intermediate throws in a row.

Insightful and I agree with most all of this, aside from the point that Darnold shoulders less blame than the coaching. The guy took more negative sack yards than anyone in a playoff game in history. Half the time the camera showed his face he had a 1000 yards stare going and looked like you'd find a tumble wheat rolling between his ears. I was one of the biggest Darnold fans on this board all year and what a fun ride it was! Then Sam drove us off a cliff.

KO needs to get better. The issues you pointed out are well-documented and he has yet to really fix them after three seasons. Fair criticism.

But someone said it on another thread-- I'm not sure I've ever in my life seen a guy's play fall off so dramatically, so quickly. At least not recently. Guy looked like the aliens from Space Jam stole his talent and he forgot how to play. I'm still in shock to be honest.

I'm glad we don't have fans managing our team lol

Canthony wrote:

He is just a troll. His KOC assessment is completely wrong.

It's not completely wrong.

I think KOC has done some good things, but despite all the regular season success the bottom line is he is 0-2 in the playoffs with two awful first round exits. I concur with some of the criticism in that his offense is either on, or it's not and he doesn't do much to alter the game plan. The play calling takes too long and it seems like several times a game we are rushing to get the snap off before the playclock expires and it results in a penalty or screws up the cadence of the play. This team has to get better, but so does KOC.

Oh, and Sean McVay is still his daddy until proven otherwise

Waterboy wrote:

It's not completely wrong.

The idea we shouldn't extend Kevin O'Connell this off-season is completely wrong.

He's done enough to get an extension.  The culture, the QB development, the fact he's won 65% of his games in his first three years.  Yeah, let's not be stupid about this.  He's a good dude, good coach, and we would be fools to not keep him.

This is his 3rd year as a HC.  He's accomplished more than a lot of guys in their first 3 years on the job.  Remember when another bright offensive mind couldn't win the big one years ago?  And then his organization pushed him out despite a great record, being a player coach, and a great offensive mind.  Yeah that guy was Andy Reid and he went on to win a lot of playoff games and Super Bowls with the Chiefs after leaving Philly.

MAD GAINZ wrote:

The idea we shouldn't extend Kevin O'Connell this off-season is completely wrong.

He's done enough to get an extension.  The culture, the QB development, the fact he's won 65% of his games in his first three years.  Yeah, let's not be stupid about this.  He's a good dude, good coach, and we would be fools to not keep him.

This is his 3rd year as a HC.  He's accomplished more than a lot of guys in their first 3 years on the job.  Remember when another bright offensive mind couldn't win the big one years ago?  And then his organization pushed him out despite a great record, being a player coach, and a great offensive mind.  Yeah that guy was Andy Reid and he went on to win a lot of playoff games and Super Bowls with the Chiefs after leaving Philly.

how many coaches get it in their first HC gig?  

I am not saying not to extend KOC,  I think he has earned a few more years.  ( I would add 2 more years onto his existing deal with a nice bump in pay for the next 3)

I am just wondering if part of a successful coach in the modern era comes from trial and error,  and being part of multiple organizations to be able to really become that type of coach that really gets the most out of his players.

MAD GAINZ wrote:
The thing is...  after the Indy and Jacksonville games, the high or off target throws were 5-6 passes per game.  Darnold was completing like 65% of his passes on 30+ attempts.  It wasn't until these last two games where the high and/or off target passes were the majority instead of the minority.

Every QB has bad throws here and there.  Seemed like the bigger the stakes, the worse Sam played.

He still had a good season overall, but QBs are defined by what they do in the big moments and big games and Darnold wasn't good enough when we the stakes were highest.

Wow I really don’t appreciate being called a troll. I’ve seen three of the 4  Vikings Super Bowl losses so I go back a lot longer than you I bet? I’m assuming if you can’t see the shortcomings in  Kevin O’Connell then you are just looking at it through purple colored glasses he was thoroughly out classed the last two week.  Your quarterback was off which in turn you need to change up your scheme and go shorter routes,  and quick hitting patterns. It’s not brain surgery. Everything doesn’t have to be 20 yards downfield.  I like Kevin O’Connell he seems like a good young coach, but he has a lot to learn about making in game adjustments. He was absolutely atrocious.