OT: Tesla cuts Supercharger team
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-30/tesla-axes-supercharger-team-in-blow-to-other-automakers?srnd=homepage-americas
Musk cut all 500 people in this group, including the senior director. So I worked in this EV charging space for just under two years, here's my two cents:
[list]
[*]The hype over EVs and EV charging was completely and utterly overblown. The consumer is not ready nor interested en masse for a more expensive car that gives them range anxiety (worry about charging their cars over longer trips). Now that worry is usually overblown as the vast majority of people that own EVs drive about 40 miles per day. But its the perception.
[*]5 states in the U.S. account for almost 80% of all EV sales. Washington, California, Texas, Florida and New York.
[*]Most of the EV fast-charging stations (Level 3) around the U.S. on highway rest stops do NOT get used. Yep, you keep hearing about how we need more to be where the country needs to be by 2030, but the dirty little secret is many are going unused.
[*]Local charging stations at Walmart, your local library, hotels, apartment complexes are broken easily and it takes forever to get them fixed. Customer frustration with broken public EV chargers is off the chart.
[*]The areas where public EV charging stations are popular have long lines with people waiting to charge. It can take 20-30 minutes to charger your car....what do you do while waiting? And when there are 5 chargers at a location, but 20 cars waiting, you can feel the frustration.
[*]Where do most people charge their EVs? At home, 80% of the time. A Level 1 EV charger cord (a regular 110v you can plug into a normal outlet) can take from 11 to 40 hours to charge your car, depending on battery level. A Level 2 (much faster, probably 2-5 hours to charge depending) which can either be hardwired into your garage or you need a NEMA plug needs a 240v, 50 to 80 amp configuration. That's expensive and it depends where your electrical box is located. Cost can be anywhere from $1200 to $4000 to have done.
[*]Cold weather impacts battery charge retention. Its incredibly hard to charge a battery in extreme cold efficiently and quickly.
[/list]
I'm talking full EVs, not hybrids. The EV evangelists created this whole bubble of hype that was never accurate nor sustainable. I do like EVs, don't get me wrong. But when I hear the evangelists crow about 'Look at Norway! Their adoption is off the charts!' Norway has 5.5 million fucking people in the whole country. Europe has done a better job with EV charging but they've been doing it a lot longer and gas prices there have been nuts forever.
Musk cut all 500 people in this group, including the senior director. So I worked in this EV charging space for just under two years, here's my two cents:
[list]
[*]The hype over EVs and EV charging was completely and utterly overblown. The consumer is not ready nor interested en masse for a more expensive car that gives them range anxiety (worry about charging their cars over longer trips). Now that worry is usually overblown as the vast majority of people that own EVs drive about 40 miles per day. But its the perception.
[*]5 states in the U.S. account for almost 80% of all EV sales. Washington, California, Texas, Florida and New York.
[*]Most of the EV fast-charging stations (Level 3) around the U.S. on highway rest stops do NOT get used. Yep, you keep hearing about how we need more to be where the country needs to be by 2030, but the dirty little secret is many are going unused.
[*]Local charging stations at Walmart, your local library, hotels, apartment complexes are broken easily and it takes forever to get them fixed. Customer frustration with broken public EV chargers is off the chart.
[*]The areas where public EV charging stations are popular have long lines with people waiting to charge. It can take 20-30 minutes to charger your car....what do you do while waiting? And when there are 5 chargers at a location, but 20 cars waiting, you can feel the frustration.
[*]Where do most people charge their EVs? At home, 80% of the time. A Level 1 EV charger cord (a regular 110v you can plug into a normal outlet) can take from 11 to 40 hours to charge your car, depending on battery level. A Level 2 (much faster, probably 2-5 hours to charge depending) which can either be hardwired into your garage or you need a NEMA plug needs a 240v, 50 to 80 amp configuration. That's expensive and it depends where your electrical box is located. Cost can be anywhere from $1200 to $4000 to have done.
[*]Cold weather impacts battery charge retention. Its incredibly hard to charge a battery in extreme cold efficiently and quickly.
[/list]
I'm talking full EVs, not hybrids. The EV evangelists created this whole bubble of hype that was never accurate nor sustainable. I do like EVs, don't get me wrong. But when I hear the evangelists crow about 'Look at Norway! Their adoption is off the charts!' Norway has 5.5 million fucking people in the whole country. Europe has done a better job with EV charging but they've been doing it a lot longer and gas prices there have been nuts forever.
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May 1, 9:02 AM
May 1, 2024 9:02 AM
Joined May 2013
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medaille wrote:
Yeah I think we settled into a niche where the appropriate usage for an EV is for someone to use as an around the home vehicle, where all the charging is done at home and any non-home charging is emergency only. I’ve never had an EV, but public charging sounds like a nightmare to me. I’m more of a late-adopter person, but at some point I could imagine getting an EV as a commuter vehicle to and from work, but only if there was a different gas vehicle for longer trips. I imagine that people using public supercharging are doing it the bare minimum as possible which probably cuts in on the profitability of that as a business model.
True EVs are great for 2nd cars that stay in a metro area most of the time. They are very reliable, less moving parts than gas powered vehicles. My son and his wife are going to be buying a 2024 Volkswagen ID4 this Friday, so they'll get the full federal incentive ($4000) and then Colorado's incentive ($7500) which the dealer takes right off the cost. They plan to use it around Denver metro, to Boulder and for his wife's commuting a few days into work (works remotely otherwise).
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EVs need to become less expensive and the 'range anxiety' needs to be addressed. More education to the public is required. EV charging infrastructure needs to be addressed as far as maintaining charging stations and keeping them operable. I think we will make progress in those areas, but not at the lightning speed that the evangelists were projecting. Follow the money: ICE automakers have cooled or stopped altogether new initiatives for EVs and some EV manufactures have gone out of business. Too much, too soon blah blah blah. The way of the world today.
But like I said, they are great cars. And they continue to get better with each brand version. They are easy to fall in love with when driving them.
edited May 2, 2024 4:29 AM
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JimmyinSD wrote:
I think the range issue will take care of itself with battery tech. A while back I was hearing about a next generation battery that holds more charge, charges faster, and doesn't suffer some of the stability issues that the current lithium batteries do, I suspect this will be the break that EV mfgs are looking for. Like with many emerging technologies, they are so desperate to show proof of concept that they sometimes grab something that works and ride it to long and fail to continue to try to innovate until they lose momentum, I think EV is losing much of its momentum and need this battery breakthrough soon.
Cost will still be an issue. They don't sell enough vehicles to get economy of scale. Its why Tesla was so reticent to offer lower-cost options. They'd sell even less if there weren't these tax incentives out there....if they ever go away soon, good luck EV industry. You'll need it. As I mentioned previously, the 'range anxiety' is really overblown perception-wise for potential EV buyers but education on that is slow to sink in.
As I've mentioned: I'm a fan of EVs. Its just the fanatical evangelists that I have the problem with. Same with plant-based meat. The hype was ridiculous and they are bleeding out....but not dead. It was hyped as superior nutritionally and it isn't. Expensive. Once people got past the evangelism on it, they stopped buying it. Our next vehicle purchase will be a EV.
edited May 2, 2024 6:36 AM
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purplefaithful wrote:
China is helping with lower EV costs...Whether anyone is a fan of that (or not) I'm sure is all over the map.
I really like Rivian, I think they will be one of the "boutique brands" that will survive in the long-run. Fisker and a few others most likely wont.
I know BMW Neue Klasse BEV's (25/26 release) have been reported to have 1/3 more range and 30% quicker charging. Thats just one example of how the tech continues to advance. I am sure its not long until the next gen Chevy Bolt is released.
Most Americans over-estimate the range they need imo. If you can charge at home you have most likely 80% of your needs being met.
Rivian is in deep shit currently:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/earnings-disaster-rivian-serious-trouble-213000683.html
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purplefaithful wrote:
They are...
My outlook for them is clouded by my personal affinity for their vehicles. I still contend they will survive, whether that is as an independent or not?
That is certainly debatable.
Many beautiful EVs out there: Rivian, Lucid, Polestar, etc. I had the opportunity to be on a Teams call with Polestar's Swedish executive team last year. Smart people.
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minny65 wrote:
Everyone gets in a bunch when they say one party is pushing something on us through green subsidies and that is why I posted the above quote. We subsidize the wealthiest industry in the world and no one blinks an eye.
Its a really good point. Nice add to the discussion.
I would say EVs are probably more precariously hanging in there because of the subsidies than most other companies (other than farming) that get them, but still a very solid point.
edited May 2, 2024 11:52 AM
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Mike Olson wrote:
Yeah china is making a $5000 ev that they will or have begun selling in Europe
The thing that gets missed with many here in the U.S. is that Chinese companies don't need to make money, they just need volume. So if a Chinese EV manufacturer only makes a 2% gross margin, the government will subsidize them so they make 17% gross margin. Volume and output is what they are looking for.
edited May 3, 2024 10:18 AM
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