Trying to make sense of the “open competition”

Mike Olson wrote:

But can we call JJM an established QB?
If KM does seem to fit here can JJM be ok with being a #2 here? I am not sold he can.

NOpe, not established yet...

And no, I highly doubt JJM would be ok being Qb2 next year if K1 were to be extended.

But again, thats a long ways off and a lot of story still to be told.

I think the bottom line is if they didnt make a QB1 decision earlier in the week? It would have been made after today and with the same outcome. So I am glad it's resolved for the time-being anyways.

Mike Olson wrote:

Unless Murray goes off this season we will absolutely be drafting a QB next draft.

JJM is not in the future for the Vikings outside a miracle.

His play today looked no different than last year. He will get more chances but his opportunity is slipping away.

Mike Olson wrote:

oh it’s happening.

I think there's a strong possibility. New GM, new stamp on the team, new start for KOC. Unless you want to play the castoff game forever? Not sure the NIL QB portal works well in the NFL.

Based on what I saw last year, and the little I saw yesterday, if the season end result is still in doubt, Wentz not JJM should be the QB if KM goes down.... hell I think Wentz should be the one competing with KM for the top spot at this point, when things got hot for JJM he was back to throwing off his back foot and sailing passes.

And yes we will be drafting a QB next year, Brosmer looked better than JJM in terms of poise and ball placement...2s vs 4s, but the route is the route and the ball needs to be in the same place at the same time for the timings stuff to be successful and the real difference is the size of the windows

so... unless KM looks all world and we have no choice but to keep him ( which I am not expecting) better be thinking either another veteran FA reclamation signing, or swing for fences, but this team is to good to finish high enough for a legit shot at the top prospects....so likely a combination of both with a veteran place holder and a top project type QB.

Baker Mayfield could be available again, similar game to KM, if that is what KOC is looking for.

JimmyinSD wrote:

Based on what I saw last year, and the little I saw yesterday, if the season end result is still in doubt, Wentz not JJM should be the QB if KM goes down.... hell I think Wentz should be the one competing with KM for the top spot at this point, when things got hot for JJM he was back to throwing off his back foot and sailing passes.
And yes we will be drafting a QB next year, Brosmer looked better than JJM in terms of poise and ball placement...2s vs 4s, but the route is the route and the ball needs to be in the same place at the same time for the timings stuff to be successful and the real difference is the size of the windows

so... unless KM looks all world and we have no choice but to keep him ( which I am not expecting) better be thinking either another veteran FA reclamation signing, or swing for fences, but this team is to good to finish high enough for a legit shot at the top prospects....so likely a combination of both with a veteran place holder and a top project type QB.
Baker Mayfield could be available again, similar game to KM, if that is what KOC is looking for.

I think the team will be drafting a QB as well. No matter what you think of JJM as far is he being treated fairly as far as development, etc. all the things we've discussed on the board almost constantly.....besides that, does it FEEL like the team is behind JJ as a future prospect? Does it SOUND like it?? I don't get that feeling at all. Don't forget: Teasley was highly involved in deep dives on draft prospects in Seattle, he definitely has an opinion. What might you guess that opinion is? Can we even say definitively that Wentz might not be a better QB2? I just don't see a path here anymore for him outside of Murray getting injured and JJ playing to a way higher level that produces wins. But does that seem plausible? Not saying its impossible, but I think the odds of JJ playing mediocre and inconsistently is more likely than him playing lights out if K1 got hurt if I'm being honest. Maybe that's what it will take for some JJM fans to finally move on. If we've seen one thing happen in the NFL in the last 5 years or so, its fa ranchise will cut bait on their mistakes quicker than anytime in NFL history. They finally learned.

Like I've said ad nauseam: for me it was over the day K1 was signed, then I realized they were going to abandon the JJM Development Plan. And you aren't postponing that as some fans seem to think, you're most certainly abandoning it because there's either moving forward or moving backwards. Which direction do you think McCarthy is going to go now? And if an organization is doing that already, after only 10 games started, doesn't that supply an answer as well?

I think if you ask yourself critical, common sense questions like these the answer is there: whether you want to believe it yet or not is something else.

StickierBuns wrote:

I think the team will be drafting a QB as well. No matter what you think of JJM as far is he being treated fairly as far as development, etc. all the things we've discussed on the board almost constantly.....besides that, does it FEEL like the team is behind JJ as a future prospect? Does it SOUND like it?? I don't get that feeling at all. Don't forget: Teasley was highly involved in deep dives on draft prospects in Seattle, he definitely has an opinion. What might you guess that opinion is? Can we even say definitively that Wentz might not be a better QB2? I just don't see a path here anymore for him outside of Murray getting injured and JJ playing to a way higher level that produces wins. But does that seem plausible? Not saying its impossible, but I think the odds of JJ playing mediocre and inconsistently is more likely than him playing lights out if K1 got hurt if I'm being honest. Maybe that's what it will take for some JJM fans to finally move on. If we've seen one thing happen in the NFL in the last 5 years or so, its fa ranchise will cut bait on their mistakes quicker than anytime in NFL history. They finally learned.
Like I've said ad nauseam: for me it was over the day K1 was signed, then I realized they were going to abandon the JJM Development Plan. And you aren't postponing that as some fans seem to think, you're most certainly abandoning it because there's either moving forward or moving backwards. Which direction do you think McCarthy is going to go now? And if an organization is doing that already, after only 10 games started, doesn't that supply an answer as well?
I think if you ask yourself critical, common sense questions like these the answer is there: whether you want to believe it yet or not is something else.

IF (big if) the most recent reports are to be believed, then things were (are?) worse than I imagined and it transcends the football field.

I always knew were weren't getting the entire picture, but some of that was just downright bad.

And it could be that the wheels are already in motion for the team moving on? Maybe. I think the situation is more like he's on thin ice here.

I still hope the switch gets turned on for JJM while he is with this franchise.

Weird thing about this latest report and the locker room... that seems to fly in the face of what guys like Adam Thielen, Brian O'Neill, Aaron Jones, etc have said about him as recently as this offseason. They all love him and they stayed behind him even though last season didn't go how everyone wanted. Now maybe his relationship with KOC wasn't great, but with his teammates it seems like they all genuinely like him and are rooting for him.

StickierBuns wrote:

I think the team will be drafting a QB as well. No matter what you think of JJM as far is he being treated fairly as far as development, etc. all the things we've discussed on the board almost constantly.....besides that, does it FEEL like the team is behind JJ as a future prospect? Does it SOUND like it?? I don't get that feeling at all. Don't forget: Teasley was highly involved in deep dives on draft prospects in Seattle, he definitely has an opinion. What might you guess that opinion is? Can we even say definitively that Wentz might not be a better QB2? I just don't see a path here anymore for him outside of Murray getting injured and JJ playing to a way higher level that produces wins. But does that seem plausible? Not saying its impossible, but I think the odds of JJ playing mediocre and inconsistently is more likely than him playing lights out if K1 got hurt if I'm being honest. Maybe that's what it will take for some JJM fans to finally move on. If we've seen one thing happen in the NFL in the last 5 years or so, its fa ranchise will cut bait on their mistakes quicker than anytime in NFL history. They finally learned.
Like I've said ad nauseam: for me it was over the day K1 was signed, then I realized they were going to abandon the JJM Development Plan. And you aren't postponing that as some fans seem to think, you're most certainly abandoning it because there's either moving forward or moving backwards. Which direction do you think McCarthy is going to go now? And if an organization is doing that already, after only 10 games started, doesn't that supply an answer as well?
I think if you ask yourself critical, common sense questions like these the answer is there: whether you want to believe it yet or not is something else.

You’ve definitely said it ad nauseum! 😜

I don’t really believe that Kyler coming in means that JJM is out.  It is possible that KOC is over him.  There’s a long list of QBs that KOC has had in his QB room and they got removed from the team.  I do think he has a quick hook for guys that aren’t doing it the way he wants them to do it.  A lot of the guys listed on KOC’s examples of QB whispering were quickly removed from the team and he (or I guess the GM if we want to blame them) moved on trying to find a more perfect QB for his system.  That said, I think there’s room for development to happen off the field.  I think that if there’s some truth to JJM’s immaturity, I wouldn’t be surprised if KOC wants him to witness a more mature QB as an example for him to model, now that he’s been the starter and then demoted.

MAD GAINZ wrote:

Weird thing about this latest report and the locker room... that seems to fly in the face of what guys like Adam Thielen, Brian O'Neill, Aaron Jones, etc have said about him as recently as this offseason. They all love him and they stayed behind him even though last season didn't go how everyone wanted. Now maybe his relationship with KOC wasn't great, but with his teammates it seems like they all genuinely like him and are rooting for him.

Talk is cheap my friend. He's their teammate, why would they say anything bad about him? It's nearly impossible to take talk from players and coaches as meaningful information. Everybody loves everyone in the NFL. Well maybe they don't love Stefon Diggs, but aside from that...the results are all that matter in the end.

There are dozens of us!

medaille wrote:

You’ve definitely said it ad nauseum! 😜

For sure.....but I guess I'm a little dumbfounded that some fans think JJM still has a place in Minnesota. What points to that? Anything? Other than he's 23 years old? Because if that's it, that's not even close enough to a good reason for a team with talent like the Vikings. I guess file it under 'wishful thinking'.

StickierBuns wrote:

For sure.....but I guess I'm a little dumbfounded that some fans think JJM still has a place in Minnesota. What points to that? Anything? Other than he's 23 years old? Because if that's it, that's not even close enough to a good reason for a team with talent like the Vikings. I guess file it under 'wishful thinking'.

LOL

StickierBuns wrote:

For sure.....but I guess I'm a little dumbfounded that some fans think JJM still has a place in Minnesota. What points to that? Anything? Other than he's 23 years old? Because if that's it, that's not even close enough to a good reason for a team with talent like the Vikings. I guess file it under 'wishful thinking'.

You may be right, but I'm curious why you think that. Because he's not capable of developing any further? He'll push his way out? KOC hates him?

MaroonBells wrote:

You may be right, but I'm curious why you think that. Because he's not capable of developing any further? He'll push his way out? KOC hates him?

I'll stop boring everyone on this subject after this, I promise. 🤘

When have we ever seen a situation with a young QB go down like this? Ever? Who's ever started as a young QB.....played very inconsistently to the point where his QBR was dreadful....then that team decided to bench him as a starter the following year, snag a talented yet underperforming vet like K1....and then the expectation is what exactly? JJM returns after getting QB2 reps and is instilled as the starter in 2027? 2028? Does that make sense to anyone? Where is the development coming from? The investment? Please save the comparisons to Jordan Love as he sat the bench for how many years and than was installed as the starter. He never started, stunk, was benched and then was put back in as starter and flourished. That wasn't his path. The mental damage has already been done, which you can blame on JJ or KOC or some of both. It doesn't matter at this point. Instead of follow the money to get to the truth, follow the developmental investment to the truth. Its greatly reduced now. The resources are allocated elsewhere because that's where they want them. Its not personal, because any type of talent with major real upside is accommodated.

Which begs the question why? It must be that the staff doesn't believe in him in a real way any longer behind the scenes. He can't ever catch up enough to be consistently accurate. Maybe Teasley believes that to even an greater extent than the rest of the staff. Its something. JMO. IMO he gains nothing and moves backwards being QB2 and I think the staff gets that and if somehow he has some kind of epiphany and major breakthrough, great. But nobody is planning for or on that. I'm guessing Plan Bs and Plan Cs are going on right now in the GM's office for 2027 that don't include McCarthy.

StickierBuns wrote:

I'll stop boring everyone on this subject after this, I promise. 🤘
When have we ever seen a situation with a young QB go down like this? Ever? Who's ever started as a young QB.....played very inconsistently to the point where his QBR was dreadful....then that team decided to bench him as a starter the following year, snag a talented yet underperforming vet like K1....and then the expectation is what exactly? JJM returns after getting QB2 reps and is instilled as the starter in 2027? 2028? Does that make sense to anyone? Where is the development coming from? The investment? Please save the comparisons to Jordan Love as he sat the bench for how many years and than was installed as the starter. He never started, stunk, was benched and then was put back in as starter and flourished. That wasn't his path. The mental damage has already been done, which you can blame on JJ or KOC or some of both. It doesn't matter at this point. Instead of follow the money to get to the truth, follow the developmental investment to the truth. Its greatly reduced now. The resources are allocated elsewhere because that's where they want them. Its not personal, because any type of talent with major real upside is accommodated.
Which begs the question why? It must be that the staff doesn't believe in him in a real way any longer behind the scenes. He can't ever catch up enough to be consistently accurate. Maybe Teasley believes that to even an greater extent than the rest of the staff. Its something. JMO. IMO he gains nothing and moves backwards being QB2 and I think the staff gets that and if somehow he has some kind of epiphany and major breakthrough, great. But nobody is planning for or on that. I'm guessing Plan Bs and Plan Cs are going on right now in the GM's office for 2027 that don't include McCarthy.

Sure, there are a lot of firsts that would have to happen. But there have already been a lot of firsts that put us in this situation to begin with. Rookie QB missing his entire rookie season due to injury is one. So the situation is unique no matter how you look at it.

But you do mention something I think isn't being mentioned enough: "The mental damage has already been done." If you watch the Raiders game you'll see a QB who was not only accurate, but played with a confidence you could see. I remember thinking that the most impressive thing wasn't the accuracy, it was that it all happened after an interception. He was able to forget that and remain aggressive and decisive. What happened to THAT guy?

I think the injury had a lot to do with it. I think it messed him up. We're talking about a kid who struggled with depression in high school. He gets hurt and his world came crashing down. I wouldn't be too surprised if we find out later that JJ's mental state at the time led to his weight loss. He comes back the next year and he's not the same guy. Then he gets hurt again. And again. And again. The confidence takes a big hit.

So like Darnold and Mayfield, the best thing for him might be to clear his head as QB2. The odds of him having to come in for Kyler this year are decent. And that's where his future will be written. But if he demands a trade, he could wallow behind a sturdier QB elsewhere, while he watches Wentz drive his Ferrari in Minnesota.

MaroonBells wrote:

Sure, there are a lot of firsts that would have to happen. But there have already been a lot of firsts that put us in this situation to begin with. Rookie QB missing his entire rookie season due to injury is one. So the situation is unique no matter how you look at it.
But you do mention something I think isn't being mentioned enough: "The mental damage has already been done." If you watch the Raiders game you'll see a QB who was not only accurate, but played with a confidence you could see. I remember thinking that the most impressive thing wasn't the accuracy, it was that it all happened after an interception. He was able to forget that and remain aggressive and decisive. What happened to THAT guy?
I think the injury had a lot to do with it. I think it messed him up. We're talking about a kid who struggled with depression in high school. He gets hurt and his world came crashing down. I wouldn't be too surprised if we find out later that JJ's mental state at the time led to his weight loss. He comes back the next year and he's not the same guy. Then he gets hurt again. And again. And again. The confidence takes a big hit.
So like Darnold and Mayfield, the best thing for him might be to clear his head as QB2. The odds of him having to come in for Kyler this year are decent. And that's where his future will be written. But if he demands a trade, he could wallow behind a sturdier QB elsewhere, while he watches Wentz drive his Ferrari in Minnesota.

Neither Mary Shelley nor Bram Stoker could have written the first 2 years of JJM...It's one hella tale.

StickierBuns wrote:

I'll stop boring everyone on this subject after this, I promise. 🤘
When have we ever seen a situation with a young QB go down like this? Ever? Who's ever started as a young QB.....played very inconsistently to the point where his QBR was dreadful....then that team decided to bench him as a starter the following year, snag a talented yet underperforming vet like K1....and then the expectation is what exactly? JJM returns after getting QB2 reps and is instilled as the starter in 2027? 2028? Does that make sense to anyone? Where is the development coming from? The investment? Please save the comparisons to Jordan Love as he sat the bench for how many years and than was installed as the starter. He never started, stunk, was benched and then was put back in as starter and flourished. That wasn't his path. The mental damage has already been done, which you can blame on JJ or KOC or some of both. It doesn't matter at this point. Instead of follow the money to get to the truth, follow the developmental investment to the truth. Its greatly reduced now. The resources are allocated elsewhere because that's where they want them. Its not personal, because any type of talent with major real upside is accommodated.
Which begs the question why? It must be that the staff doesn't believe in him in a real way any longer behind the scenes. He can't ever catch up enough to be consistently accurate. Maybe Teasley believes that to even an greater extent than the rest of the staff. Its something. JMO. IMO he gains nothing and moves backwards being QB2 and I think the staff gets that and if somehow he has some kind of epiphany and major breakthrough, great. But nobody is planning for or on that. I'm guessing Plan Bs and Plan Cs are going on right now in the GM's office for 2027 that don't include McCarthy.

But when has it ever happened that a team with said struggling QB after 10 games got a starting caliber QB for basically free? Like it doesn't really matter who your rookie QB is, if you get a QB that is a chunk better for one year for free, you are going to do that.

Literally everyone says Kyler is the best contract in the NFL this year. Why would you not do that.

@StickierBuns,Steve Young, wasted rookie year in USFL, two bad years in Tampa, 3-16 record as a starter. QB2 behind Montana for 4 years. Walsh thought he had a bad surround in TB but had the talent. As a close to an analog start as JJ.

BigAl99 wrote:

@StickierBuns,Steve Young, wasted rookie year in USFL, two bad years in Tampa, 3-16 record as a starter. QB2 behind Montana for 4 years. Walsh thought he had a bad surround in TB but had the talent. As a close to an analog start as JJ.

And others have pointed out Brees too...

Keep dreamin', lads.....nobody would like to see it more than me. Peace out for me on the subject. 🤘