Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
LOL, you know where I stand on the effectiveness of all the day 3 picks Spielman likes to collect...Diggs was just a case of the blind squirrel inevitably finding a nut by digging so many holes. But you're going to hear that Bisi Johnson was a hit (and I will admit he's a good depth selection though only an NFL starter by default), and of course Thielen. I don't understand why people argue that getting decent players as undrafted free agents should improve the grade for drafting players, but the Spielman faithful do.
You are correct about the lack of deep threats on the roster, but I think the 2020 plan is to run a lot of formations with 2 TEs, FB, RB, and Thielen. Irv Smith better play like George Kittle, if not Kellen Winslow Sr., or poor Adam is going to be triple-teamed.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
If they are trading up it better be for an OT or 3T
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
While I do worry about packaging together too many assets to move up, I do agree with your take. It's extremely difficult to find a player like Diggs in the middle rounds, so if they feel strongly that one of the top receivers can step up and have a big impact while saving $9 million per year in cap space over Diggs, then that is a nice way to recover from a bad situation. Now whether the drop off 2nd best to 4th best receiver plus losing assets to address other needs is worth it, is a bigger question. I will say that I felt that Diggs was the better of our duo and I think that for the offense and Thielen to work most effectively, we do need to find another receiver who can at least take the top off of the defense and ideally be able to do more.
Quote: @Tyr said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
While I do worry about packaging together too many assets to move up, I do agree with your take. It's extremely difficult to find a player like Diggs in the middle rounds, so if they feel strongly that one of the top receivers can step up and have a big impact while saving $9 million per year in cap space over Diggs, then that is a nice way to recover from a bad situation. Now whether the drop off 2nd best to 4th best receiver plus losing assets to address other needs is worth it, is a bigger question. I will say that I felt that Diggs was the better of our duo and I think that for the offense and Thielen to work most effectively, we do need to find another receiver who can at least take the top off of the defense and ideally be able to do more.
Agree. I think its quick to point out Thielen, but what about the running game? You need to have the ability to work down the field, the Vikings ran the ball much more effectively when they used Diggs to keep the safeties out of the box. Heck, if the opted not to it was a massacre (2019 Eagles game). Paying $20+M for two receivers is one thing, but it is not a luxury to have two studs. Nobody batted an eye when the Falcons traded a future 1st to go get Julio Jones when they still had Roddy White.... Point being, if you think a guy is a pro bowl talent you try to add them if they're able to slot into the typical 22 guys you see on the field. When you start breaking that rule (best player available) you start making mistakes.
I also think its a bit of a myth that you don't need a talented WR2 in the Kubiak offense. Yes, they run a lot of 2 TE sets with leaves you with 2 receivers on the field. But that doesn't mean you're strictly a running team at all. Somehow that has become a thing. In 2019 they ran the ball 50.4% of the time. That is actually relatively heavy for Kubiak and was somewhat game-script driven. But here is the catch (no pun intended) when passing they went to WR1 or WR2 on 50% of their passing attempts (for context that is very high). Its much higher if you take out RB receptions.
Although long winded, there is a simple point. You need two very good receivers to unlock the offense to its full potential. Although its considered a "run-first" and "TE heavy" offense the top-end receivers on the roster end up being vital and very important.
So Geoff, asides from the consensus top 3 WR prospects, who are some others that can be deemed ready to contribute in a meaningful way from day one?
Are there a couple receivers who you think would be the best fit for giving the Vikings someone to take the top off of the defense? Also, are there any fast/deep threat receivers with inconsistent hands that we should avoid?
Quote: @Tyr said:
Are there a couple receivers who you think would be the best fit for giving the Vikings someone to take the top off of the defense? Also, are there any fast/deep threat receivers with inconsistent hands that we should avoid?
Oh hell, let's just acknowledge the elephant in the room...
It's the chicken or the egg---if we don't address the oline early does it matter if we draft Digg's replacement since we'll have to contend with Kirk in traction
I mean it seems like we're just kicking the can down the road till we have the next disgruntled WR if they are only decoys to stretch the field so we can run the ball underneath
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ Tyr said:
Are there a couple receivers who you think would be the best fit for giving the Vikings someone to take the top off of the defense? Also, are there any fast/deep threat receivers with inconsistent hands that we should avoid?
Oh hell, let's just acknowledge the elephant in the room...
I'll admit that I've wanted nothing to do with pure deep threat receivers since Williamson. Even guys like Bernard Berrian, who was better than Williamson, but didn't offer much more than speed and hamstring injuries. I also have similar concerns about gadget receivers after Harvin and Patterson. They were at least effective in their own ways, but longterm you need guys who are strong route runners, otherwise they drop off a cliff once they get banged up or teams figure out their trick.
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